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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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I don't follow your comments Blue.
Your comments:
"Nobody is claiming your wrongful remark, that it it's "hallowed" or "sacred", WTF????
A saint didn't die there! It was American citizens. That's why people object. Not because a Saint died there, but because American workers died there. And their families protest it."
(don't know how to quote formally)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Wrong, yet again, Blue...........
http://saintmychaljudge.blogspot.com/
Saint Mychal Judge
To encourage greater Faith, Hope & Love through "the saint of 9/11"
Father Judge's body bag was labeled "Victim 0001," recognized as the first official victim of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Former President Bill Clinton was among the 3,000 people who attended his funeral, held on September 15 at St. Francis of Assisi Church in Manhattan. It was presided over by Cardinal Edward Egan. Clinton said his death was "a special loss. We should live his life as an example of what has to prevail." Judge was buried at Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Totowa, New Jersey.[14]
There have been calls within the Roman Catholic Church to canonize Judge to sainthood.[15][16] Several churches independent of Rome, most notably the Orthodox Catholic Church of America, have declared him a saint.[18][19]
Some Catholic leaders recognize Judge as a de facto saint.[20] Some assert that Mychal Judge has already been declared a saint by widespread acclamation of the faithful, as was the custom of the early Church.[21] There have been claims of miraculous healings through prayers to Judge.[22] Evidence of miracles is required for canonization to Sainthood in the Catholic Church.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Hmmm. Maybe you mean that no one has called the ground zero plot hallowed or sacred? If this is what you mean, that language is all over all sorts of news outlets.
I'm certainly not saying the place is not special. It is. People died there. People were terribly injured there. People were severely traumatized there.
My earlier question was just wondering why if it is so sacred/hallowed why *anything* is being built there. I personally haven't heard that language used about it before the recent controversy.
And further, why a stink isn't being raised regarding the Pentagon.
These are genuine questions I have. If I've misconstrued your remarks - sorry. I'm just not clear on your earlier post.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Of what relevance is it whether a "saint" died there or an "ordinary" citizen died there. Three thousand perfectly innocent people died there and how many countless others have been affected whose lives are permanently scarred for it.
>are you just dense? Blue brought it up, I was refuting him. Again.
The guys on your side keep making assertions, and they keep getting refuted. So you guys bring up irrelevancies, and even THOSE get refuted.
=
The point is whether we allow ourselves to be kicked (yet again) in the groin. Now the bottom line is that perhaps we will have no choice in the long run. Something like this could well end up in the Supreme Court and they may have to decide it.
>Decide WHAT? There is no legal issue, EVERYONE AGREES, except YOU.
But in the meanwhile are we suppose to just roll over and make no effort to preserve the honor and sanctity of those whose lives were prematurely snuffed out in this "holy" jihad. It is an affront and a proverbial thumb stuck in the eye. It is the ultimate "nah nah."
===
>Now you are just arguing for the point of being provocative. You've had it explained to you again and again, that the person who do driving this is VASTLY more anti-extremist than you are, and has been our ally in fighting the extremists. Both Republican and Democratic Presidents have worked with him personally.
If you are concerned, you ought to be a LOT more concerned with Grover Norquist, the braintrust of the Republican Conservative Evangelicals, and his connection to the terrorists.
==
Now it may well be legal (likely it is) but I'd like to see this thing travel the whole gamut and, if necessary, be settled in the Supreme Court. At least then we could say we attempted to preserve honor and integrity but were stymied in said effort.
==
>You have neither honor nor integrity. You knowingly smear good people, people who defend America. Shame on you.
I don't think those whose sense of decency and integrity are offended beyond all reasonable means of description, should simply roll over and die.
>Oh, please, Allah.........
I say hamper, block, stonewall and ultimately force this thing through the courts then abide by the whatever is decision and make peace with it.
===
>Fight America, block what Manhattans want who live there. Help America's enemies. I have no words for people of your ilk. Where is McCarthy when we need him?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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You people are priceless. Callie kinda gets it.
Call them racists or whatever, but many people feel badly about this project by Muslims. The pain endures for some.
Does it affect me? No! Do I sympathize? Yes!!!!
It's that simple. The Imam doesn't appear to sympathize either. F*#k him!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:29am PT
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Blurring, do you think catholic churches should show some consideration and sympathy for others and keep their churches > 4 blocks away from schools and places where children congregate?
Nice try. I think you realize how ridiculous that analogy is.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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How can you not see that prohibiting Muslims from expressing their religion with full equality to all other citizens, where ever they see fit, will add tremendous fuel to the terrorists' anti-American propaganda?
How can you not see that showing tolerance and acceptance of Islam will give the Muslim world less reason to hate us?
Worth repeating..
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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Look at the preacher, John.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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I have looked at him Blue. He seems reasonable. Even George Bush senior respected him. You use to believe that George Bush senior was an intelligent president. What happened? You don't trust him anymore? You are reading too many reactionary articles.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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No, John you are dismissing too much. Do your homework.
And just because Bush sucked his dick, don't make it right!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 20, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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stop reading jihadwatch blue. It is a biased piece of garbage. Sufis are the peaceful sect within Islam. This Imam has written numerous books on the need for Muslims to be peaceful. He beats the crap out of the current Pope, who helped coverup widespread pedophilia in the Catholic church.
This Amam is no more responsible for the attacks on the world trade center then Billy Graham is for the kooks in the South who beat their kids in front of their church congregations in an effort to not spare the rod.
This whole reaction is the result of one hate filled blogger and fox news.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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Aug 20, 2010 - 07:54am PT
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Not in my backyard, huh? Build whatever you like.
Who cares. It's just a plot of ground.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 20, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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obviously the answer is to round em all up and send em to gitmo!
it is a war against terror right? and you posters against the center equate the muslims with terror right?
simple, it worked in WW2 in the internment camps, the merican way....
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 20, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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Lois states: The mosque is a symbol of Islam and as such it speaks to the concepts of jihad, Sharia law, and a whole gamut of things Islam preaches and which many people consider to be an affront to civility and humanity.
Lois, you have a Constitutional right to be ignorant, to lack honor, and to have no integrity. Nevertheless, your statement is shameful given the lives that have been lost to give you your Constitutional rights.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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I'm goin' climbin'....have fun here!!!!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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Wonder how many "ground zeros" the US has created in Iraq and if we are going to built Christians churches near the mosques that we have destroyed?
The basis of this tread is stupid.
This is no Mosque at ground zero and in America we have the rights to built a church/mosque/gathering any place we want...in any located.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Touche' DMT.
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zclip
climber
Berkeley
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Aug 20, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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If you look into this by reading or watching something other than Fox news, you'll see that it's not at ground zero. And it's not a mosque.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Brothers, Fundamentally
Commentary | JOHN BALZARSeptember 17, 2001|JOHN BALZAR
It was shocking, and not so shocking.
It was shocking to hear Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson point angry fingers of blame at the United States for our tragedy.
It was not so shocking because these two clerics share something basic with radical religious leaders on the other side of the world: fundamentalism.
Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists worship different deities but they both live in dread of the anything-goes, individualized and expanding culture of the United States. They believe that America brought upon itself the wrath from the heavens.
This is not me saying so. This is them speaking.
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked," said Falwell of the terrorists attacks of Sept. 11. "I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
Appearing on Christian television, Falwell also said, "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
According to transcripts of the program, Robertson replied: "Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."
What we deserve?
At the root, fundamentalism is a struggle against modernity--against individualism, against moral self-determination and, yes, against freedom. Behind fundamentalism is one theological doctrine or another, but Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are cultural and political zealots as well as religious crusaders. Robertson, remember, ran for president in 1988.
Fundamentalists share a belief that religious tenets, whether drawn from the Koran or the Bible, provide the supreme law. Thus fundamentalism is wholly authoritarian. Fundamentalism is radicalism. Look up radical in the dictionary: "the foundation source of something; fundamental; basic."
"Fundamentalism is fundamentalism is fundamentalism," says an Arabist friend of mine who teaches history at a Christian college.
I'm not trying to be provocative. Falwell and Robertson were plenty provocative by themselves. I don't seek to meet their accusations with accusations of my own; there will be people happy to do that. Rather, like many of us, I'm trying to understand just what the United States is up against now.
How, we ask, could this happen? Just what in all the world could propel people to do such misguided things? We shake our heads as if the idea is as foreign and unfathomable as the lives of those robed men whom we see on television in the desert far off.
But I don't think you have to look abroad for all the clues. The same hate-fear that drives fundamentalists in Afghanistan also works on the hearts of Christian fundamentalists in the U.S.
I share with scholars the view that fundamentalism is not aberrant but understandable behavior during times of upheaval in the social order. In fact, I think there is a little fundamentalist in us all. As we face the unknowns of technological change, as we perceive a decline in individual values, as we witness a shift in power from nations to corporations, the old ways seem ever so sensible. Nostalgia has a foot squarely in fundamentalist thinking.
This is not a new phenomenon. Japan, with its highly developed Samurai culture, found itself threatened 400 years ago by globalization and the advent of firearms. It closed its ports to the world for two centuries.
I suppose I must add, so the letter writers don't work themselves into fits, that I am not equating U.S. Christian fundamentalists with Islamic terrorists. Neither am I equating Islamic fundamentalists, or for that matter Jewish fundamentalists, with terrorists. I am saying that Christian fundamentalists see things much as other fundamentalists do. Terrorism arises not from fundamentalism but from extreme fundamentalists, who take it upon themselves to fight for the only order that makes sense to them. Holy warriors.
It is worth reminding ourselves that extreme Christian fundamentalism breeds its own violent cells of terrorists here at home. According to the Abortion Rights League, there have been 2,500 reported attacks and 55,000 acts of illegal disruption against medical clinics since the late 1970s in the United States.
For a free society, fundamentalism poses the most basic of paradoxes: It flourishes by tolerance, but tolerance is what it cannot tolerate.
Perhaps fundamentalism--and the fundamentalism that breeds extremism--is not so hard to fathom after all. It's right here at home.
As Falwell said, "I believe that if America does not repent and return to a genuine faith and dependence on Him, we may expect more tragedies."
So long as fundamentalists insist that this is so, it will surely be true
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Fatrad said:
I have no problem with the site of the mosque, and the Imam seems ok, but which textbooks and who's paying for it? I have this suspicion that the Imam may not be around very long anyway, associating with us infidels.
The Sufi tradition of Islam does not rely on textbooks (actually, I don't think that any Mosque/Temple/Church does....I believe that refers to schools, which I don't think is part of the plan, here.
The imparting of tradition in Sufi, takes place on a personal level.
"According to Idries Shah, the Sufi philosophy is universal in nature, its roots predating the arising of Islam and the other modern-day religions; likewise, some Muslims consider Sufism outside the sphere of Islam."
"Sufism, which is a general term for Muslim mysticism, sprang up largely in reaction against the worldliness which infected Islam when its leaders became the powerful and wealthy rulers of multitudes of people and were influenced by foreign cultures. Harun al-Rashid, eating off gold and silver, toying with a harem of scented beauties, surrounded by an impenetrable retinue of officials, eunuchs and slaves, was a far cry from the stern simplicity of an Umar, who lived in the modest house, wore patched clothes and could be approached by any of his followers"
"To enter the way of Sufism, the seeker begins by finding a teacher, as the connection to the teacher is considered necessary for the growth of the pupil. The teacher, to be genuine, must have received the authorization to teach (ijazah) of another Master of the Way, in an unbroken succession (silsilah) leading back to Sufism's origin with Muhammad. It is the transmission of the divine light from the teacher's heart to the heart of the student, rather than of worldly knowledge transmitted from mouth to ear, that allows the adept to progress."
"Scholars and adherents of Sufism are unanimous in agreeing that Sufism cannot be learned through books."
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