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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 22, 2016 - 07:08am PT
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Religion is evil.
Indoctrination stunts the developing mind.
Fancy imaginings by broken brains.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Sep 22, 2016 - 07:15am PT
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Reincarnation explains nothing, other than it's a way out of a logical explanation of what's true.
First of all????
What about other animals??
Do they reincarnate??
If no, then why not?
are you sure?
What about bacteria?
What happens when you become enlightened?
no more reincarnation?
If you were a biologist, you would see the obvious link between man and all of the rest of the living kingdom
You step on a ant, it is Dead and not coming back
You kill a rat, it is dead
you kill a whale, it is dead
You kill a chimp, you kill a human
It's all the same
dead is dead
there is no spirit or soul w/o a living flesh and blood body to support it.
There is nothing that can come back and start a new life in a new body.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 22, 2016 - 08:19am PT
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If this is the limit of your philosophy then you've stopped thinking. Don't lean on your own misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I would go around raping and pillaging if it wasn't for my belief in Jesus, but I am saying that logically it wouldn't matter.
Simply put, if you try to kill me or my people then you might get killed or hurt. Even if you succeed, my people will kill you and your people. Simple self preservation. People are a cooperative herd by nature. The Golden Rule predates Jesus. The Bible is incredibly divisive. Intellectually, you theists are responsible for most wars and atrocities.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 22, 2016 - 09:59am PT
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The Bible is incredibly divisive. Intellectually, you theists are responsible for most wars and atrocities.
It does not follow that because theists are responsible for "most" wars that theology was the motivation. Wars are started over a variety of complex issues usually dealing with control, power and territory. Religious wars are usually the result of secular class distinctions as in Protestant vs. Catholic problems in Ireland or the need for Cromwell (control/ territory) to take Ireland in the first place.
there is no spirit or soul w/o a living flesh and blood body to support it.
There is nothing that can come back and start a new life in a new body.
This is a gross simplification of the mind body problem. That affecting the brain results in effects in the mind does not automatically equate mind and brain as in affecting the bulb effects the light it produces but the light is not the bulb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2016 - 10:04am PT
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But we were also given free will and through our choices we create the karma that rules our lives. Including a child who is born with illness or dies young. Those children are not young souls and that was not their first human lifetime.
There's nothing in there that's any more palatable and I personally find the concepts of a child being born with karma or original sin both entirely interchangeable and equally reprehensible.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 22, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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Thank you for giving your thoughts on this question:
I just want to know if anyone can explain the difference between right and wrong in the absence of a "guidebook" so to speak. Not which actions are right or wrong, but what makes actions right or wrong? Most people seem to avoid it but I like hearing other perspectives, so thanks.
I agree that the most logical reason for human morals, in a purely physical world, would be that humans cooperate better with them and it promotes our survival. And also self preservation when there are consequences. Basically, DNA with an organic shell keeping whichever mutations make it more likely to spread in the population, whether it be empathy or a dopamine release when improving the survival probability of the group.
Unfortunately I don't think that answers the question. If our atoms are just along for the ride and some other "human" quality makes the decision then that seems to imply that there is something other than the purely physical and electrical human body.
I don't see how people can reconcile some sort of concept of good and evil or right and wrong having value in the absence of the spiritual part of life.
Not to go into wall of text mode, but how does the value of earth change if it goes from every species surviving and reproducing to a big dead mass that's been nuked into oblivion by weapons or a comet or volcano or whatever? If physical existence of matter is the extent of it, then the form and shape of matter doesn't have any importance, does it? Aside from the individual wanting certain parts of their brain to be stimulated to they have pleasant feelings. Even though feelings are chemical and electrical reactions with no distinction from lightning hitting a tree if the human doesn't have a spiritual component.
I don't know if this is making sense. Funny how people on opposing sides of a thought have trouble conveying their ideas and understanding those of others. Or, sometimes, trying not to. I'm trying, honest. I thought about this a lot during times when I doubted the existence of God.
I guess I'll pose the question again, I just want to know if anyone can explain the difference between right and wrong in the absence of a guidebook so to speak. Not which actions are right or wrong, but what makes actions right or wrong?
And rephrase:
Why would the physical location, form or actions of purely physical matter, matter? All that happens when humans die is that we not longer send electrical signals. So what?
Edit: I don't mean any of this in a way to imply value or say one way is better than another. I'm trying to understand out of curiosity. I'm actually more impressed than anything by people who cope with life with this underlying question unanswered. Or maybe unasked...
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 22, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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Only stupid atheist believe in God.
That would be a stupid atheist.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 22, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
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You can't expect much from an angry government employee.
Or a smoking duck.
Curt
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 22, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 23, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Ha! I like the term electric meat. Future route name!
Anyway, that example still appeals to emotion. I'm wondering if anyone has a logical reason for right and wrong. In a world of simple "electric meat" emotions aren't anything logically important. Other than for the survival of a species. Just electricity in a different part of a mass of neurons. Right?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 27, 2016 - 09:59am PT
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There's no buyer's remorse with Jesus, He never fails!
-goB
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"He himself hath suffered being tempted."
Hebrews 2:18
It is a common-place thought, and yet it tastes like nectar to the weary heart--Jesus was tempted as I am. You have heard that truth many times: have you grasped it? He was tempted to the very same sins into which we fall. Do not dissociate Jesus from our common manhood. It is a dark room which you are going through, but Jesus went through it before. It is a sharp fight which you are waging, but Jesus has stood foot to foot with the same enemy. Let us be of good cheer, Christ has borne the load before us, and the blood-stained footsteps of the King of glory may be seen along the road which we traverse at this hour. There is something sweeter yet--Jesus was tempted, but Jesus never sinned. Then, my soul, it is not needful for thee to sin, for Jesus was a man, and if one man endured these temptations and sinned not, then in his power his members may also cease from sin. Some beginners in the divine life think that they cannot be tempted without sinning, but they mistake; there is no sin in being tempted, but there is sin in yielding to temptation. Herein is comfort for the sorely tempted ones. There is still more to encourage them if they reflect that the Lord Jesus, though tempted, gloriously triumphed, and as he overcame, so surely shall his followers also, for Jesus is the representative man for his people; the Head has triumphed, and the members share in the victory. Fears are needless, for Christ is with us, armed for our defence. Our place of safety is the bosom of the Saviour. Perhaps we are tempted just now, in order to drive us nearer to him. Blessed be any wind that blows us into the port of our Saviour's love! Happy wounds, which make us seek the beloved Physician. Ye tempted ones, come to your tempted Saviour, for he can be touched with a feeling of your infirmities, and will succour every tried and tempted one.
"If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
1 John 2:1
"If any man sin, we have an advocate." Yes, though we sin, we have him still. John does not say, "If any man sin he has forfeited his advocate," but "we have an advocate," sinners though we are. All the sin that a believer ever did, or can be allowed to commit, cannot destroy his interest in the Lord Jesus Christ, as his advocate. The name here given to our Lord is suggestive. "Jesus." Ah! then he is an advocate such as we need, for Jesus is the name of one whose business and delight it is to save. "They shall call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins." His sweetest name implies his success. Next, it is "Jesus Christ"--Christos, the anointed. This shows his authority to plead. The Christ has a right to plead, for he is the Father's own appointed advocate and elected priest. If he were of our choosing he might fail, but if God hath laid help upon one that is mighty, we may safely lay our trouble where God has laid his help. He is Christ, and therefore authorized; he is Christ, and therefore qualified, for the anointing has fully fitted him for his work. He can plead so as to move the heart of God and prevail. What words of tenderness, what sentences of persuasion will the anointed use when he stands up to plead for me! One more letter of his name remains, "Jesus Christ the righteous." This is not only his character but his plea. It is his character, and if the Righteous One be my advocate, then my cause is good, or he would not have espoused it. It is his plea, for he meets the charge of unrighteousness against me by the plea that he is righteous. He declares himself my substitute and puts his obedience to my account. My soul, thou hast a friend well fitted to be thine advocate, he cannot but succeed; leave thyself entirely in his hands.
-CHARLES SPURGEON
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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One can follow the ethics that Jesus expouses according to the New Testament and leave it at that and that alone is incredibly satisfying. Is more needed? At least for me, no.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Michael Shermer, after speaking... That's bullsh#t.
I don't cheat on my wife because there is a god.
I don't cheat on my wife because I promised her I wouldn't
I don't cheat on my wife because I love her. Period.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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One can follow the ethics that Jesus expouses according to the New Testament and leave it at that...
Yes. And the World would be a better place. It is the teachings that are important--all the BS embellishments and claims that he was the son of God add absolutely nothing.
Curt
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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In discussing religion I am sometimes reminded of . . .
[youtube=Q1zbgd6xpGQ&list=PLOHbM4GGWADc5bZgvbivvttAuWGow6h05&index=15]
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SuperTopo on the Web
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