Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Feb 11, 2018 - 11:39am PT
|
This is from the CA Water Resources Control Board. Tells a different story. I don't think breaking usage down by water districts gets it right. To arrive at an accurate representation of agricultural use as a whole, you have to add up the agricultural uses in all of those small water districts. This chart shows water use as a whole, not broken up by district.
Edit: What the chart doesn't show is the loss of water in transmission, everything from leaky pipes to eveaporation from stupid aqueducts which are uncovered and wider than they are deep.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Feb 11, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
|
I don't know that much about the history, but don't the various water systems make all of it possible? Meaning.. if the feds hadn't built the large dams, then the cities would have competed a long time ago for the smaller water supplies, and with their larger amounts of money would likely now own much of it.
Plus don't the large dams help keep the larger rivers flowing at a greater rate through the summer, so wouldn't that help support water tables throughout the valley?
Just some thoughts.
|
|
TLP
climber
|
|
|
Feb 11, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
|
Really good content being posted by all. On one small point just raised, no, flow in the major rivers doesn't help hardly at all with groundwater throughout the Valley. Lateral subsurface flow is not very fast, because the topography is really flat, and the rivers themselves are at the lowest point (line actually). Recharge is probably minimal except for the immediate floodplain of each river; whereas a lot of groundwater pumping is happening a loooong ways away from where the rivers can do any recharge. Pretty much the only way to recharge the aquifers that are being pumped out is to sit a lot of water on the ground surface where there is high enough soil permeability for the water to move downwards pretty quickly. If it doesn't go down, it evaporates during the summer.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Feb 11, 2018 - 08:34pm PT
|
Thanks for that explanation TLP..
Dingus.. I didn't mean that it was an in place physical system. I meant it more organically. If those large dams weren't built, then years ago the cities would have looked for other water sources. So they would have competed for the water that the merced irrigation district and others have. Their greater buying power would have changed things considerably. The eastside is a good example. Imagine 100 years ago, the little town of Merced competing with San Francisco for water. Who would have owned what if the feds hadn't built dams. Thats what I mean by "system". California's water supply is interrelated. No individual portion of it grew up in a vacuum.
|
|
Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 07:28am PT
|
John M posted:
Their greater buying power would have changed things considerably.
A friend living in (chronically dry) northern NM once told me: "Out here, the saying is 'Water flows toward money.'"
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 09:46am PT
|
Notice there are no great chunks missing out the spillway.
But has it actually been put to the test yet? 😈
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 09:51am PT
|
What’s water?
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 10:07am PT
|
If a levee is protecting Sacramento, it must mean that the place was built in a flood plain.
Shouldn’t the people who built in a flood plain bear responsibility for that stupid decision?
I absolutely agree that it is screwed up we allow developers to build in flood plains and then tax payers foot the bill for the flood protection and/or flood recovery.
Unfortunately, the people who built are usually developers who don't own the property by the time it floods.
But my point was:
If a state agency is in charge of building and/or overseeing a flood protection system, say a levee at Sacramento, should it really be the city of Sacramento's financial liability if the state screws up?
I don't think it should.
If Oroville was a completely private dam, then yes the owners should be 100% responsible for liability. But Oroville isn't a private dam. And I don't think the government should/would ever allow a private dam on that scale anyway.
|
|
Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 01:05pm PT
|
^^^
Oh, the naivete. You have no idea.
|
|
Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2018 - 01:20pm PT
|
So Dingus, the Stony Creek Dam isn't a gravity dam, correct? Interesting.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money."
Attributed to Senator Everitt Dirksen
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
|
If a contractor jacked you around like that on a bathroom remodel job, he'd be doing time in prison.
Everybody on that payroll needs to be locked up.
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
|
^^It's not as simple as that. From couchmaster's link
DWR awarded an initial $275 million contract in April 2017 to Kiewit to immediately plan and mobilize crews and equipment to begin construction in May 2017.
This budget allowed Kiewit to begin necessary work while the project design was completed, and was not an estimate of the total project cost. Final plans for the main spillway were completed in July 2017 and final design plans for the emergency spillway were completed and approved in August 2018. https://krcrtv.com/news/butte-county/oroville-dam-repair-costs-surpass-1b
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2018 - 09:43am PT
|
Yeah, ^^ agree with ya gumby^^ I wonder how much of that is typical news media misrepresentation and/or mixed with their usual misunderstanding. You can be damned sure that the contracts were most likely 100 multi-pages of mumbo-jumbo, weasel clauses and legalese with extra "caveats", "clarifications" and "wheretofores".
If you hand that 100 page contract to a reporter and say: "all the info is in here", they don't really give a f*#k (much) about the caveats and wheretofores. See, they need to get a 200-300 word article in by 4pm today and it's 2pm now or they'll be looking for work elsewhere. They already know the who, when, where and why. They need "what".
They'll ask: "whats" the contract value?"
You say: "$200 million and launch into the full explanation with deep details explaining amongst other things that your company doesn't know sh#t about the substrate material but must jump on this ASAP and the contract is variable for that reason blah blah blah. But the reporters brain shut off at "$200 million" and they were mentally writing the article before you even got to yer first blah.
Ya got 188,000 people gonna get sh#t on and/or some of them killed if you don't get this f*#ker fixed and fixed NOW before the next heavy rain. So you gob it together and toss money at it and get yer asses to work on it.
That's just the way it is. Ca. should have been on it sooner, that's a valid criticizm. But locking someone up for hitting hard rock instead of broken chunks? (etc etc) Nope, not with you there Chaz.
|
|
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2018 - 09:46am PT
|
It seems like that's the only way it could be done given the time constraints, but it also seems like the contractor can come up with any number they want once the $275 million hook has been set.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2018 - 09:47am PT
|
It got fixed before Noah and his ark showed up. No one lost a house, 188,000 people got to go home and they all lived. Sometimes you have to pay the money. Large projects often have slop, large "huge emergency projects" more so. It's annoying, but important that they get done fast. What would the cost be if biblical rains came and the dam failed? When I look at the Bee's 1 min video I posted upthread of the whole project start to finish, I don't see anywhere near a billion bucks in there...but that's the illusion of it.
Don't get me started on the bullet train.....the numbers for that are insanely huge and the project no necessary. What kind of payoff will citizens ever receive?
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2018 - 10:46am PT
|
From my March 18, 2017 post:
I'm guessing the cost of fixing it is over $500 million. (My current wild guess is 1 billion).
Yes, you can drain the lake for years if that is what it takes. The governor declares it an emergency situation and that is that.
I guess I should have a second career doing cost appraisals for billion dollar dam repairs...
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 13, 2018 - 08:05am PT
|
DWR and Kiewit did an absolutely amazing job at Oroville.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!