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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Your not answering the question: if God curses his own creation, "I curse the ground for thy sake" then what part of nature is good and what is bad and how can we possibly say that the beauty of nature, as declared in above poem, is a reflection of God's creative genius or even the reality of his existence?
It is a cursed world after all.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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This all seems to beg another question. If evil entered the world through earthly disobedience then where did evil come from in the first place?
It apparently preceded original sin, as it was a possible repercussion of the act in the garden before it happened.
If evil existed in the universe prior to the original sin in the garden of Eden, evil then surely already existed on earth, earth being a part of the universe and all.
The possibility of disobedience to God is surely a creation of God. How could it be otherwise?
If God created evil as a necessity for the test of "free will" then God is nothing but the great vivisectionist and perfectly evil as well as perfectly good!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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But he'll still play the fear card at the drop of a hat. Big bolshy bastard that he is. Always the implied threat, love me or else. But then, what else can a demiurge do, really.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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IF God created the angels and "gave" them "free will" then he gave them an existing choice: that is the choice between good and evil which by the necessity of the gift existed prior to any creation.
How can we conclude anything except that evil existed in a universe created by a "loving, perfect" God?
The horrors of this world can only be a function of an omnipotent being if that being exists.
Furthermore, an omnipotent being must have known the failure rate with regard to the sin of his creation prior to bringing it into being.
The lynch pin of absurdity in the New Testament is Romans 11:32: "They are condemned that they might be saved."
This is a solipsism that unravels a belief system.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Angels my ass.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17, “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
infants who live but a few days,
or older people who do not live out their years;
those who die at a hundred
will be thought mere youths;
those who fail to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.
Looks like the glass is overflowing!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I thought this question was debated rather elegantly in the movie "Contact".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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naw, that was science
this is fiction
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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They are committed to sin, concluded to unbelief, why? That they may be saved. It's still an oxymoron, in fact it's called Augustine's Oxymoron. Whether speaking of Israel or the gentiles.
It simply begs the question: Why would an omnipotent being create an imperfect creature of any sort. And further, why would he multiply that imperfection as a punishment for the failure of his own creation, essentially God's own failure? How can the perfect creator fail?
For man, humanity's true perfection, according to you, is based on the necessity of evil as part of a choice. Are you telling me that goodness can only exist in the presence of evil as part of a moral choice?
Then isn't evil perfectly necessary for the existence of a perfectly good deity and if this is the case then what exactly can this deity be?
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WBraun
climber
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W Why would an omnipotent being create an imperfect creature of any sort.
Only a fool that can't think for themselves would even think like this.
All creatures are created perfect in every way.
It's you that's projecting your own mental speculations and fantasies onto everything outside of you of what perfection is.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It's good to know that all creatures are created perfectly. I'll run down to the local hospice and let everyone know. What BS!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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How does not having the choice to do evil make you a puppet? Try and imagine a world where it is impossible to do evil, a world in which the paradigm is not to devour your fellow beings in order to just exist. In fact the paradigms of our universe are built upon a foundation of horrific violence.
I can't believe that some shark in the middle of the pacific is devouring a tuna because somebody ate a piece of fruit in God's garden! Can you?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I can't believe that some shark in the middle of the pacific is devouring a tuna because somebody ate a piece of fruit in God's garden! Can you?
PR,
Evolution happened and happens. The Heavenly Hosts (Angels etc.) were witness to creation. They were created and were here Billions of years prior to modern man who was created in GOD's image came onto the scene in the Garden of Eden.
Lucifer had already along with a 33% of the Angels fell long before. Sin and rebellion against GOD changed all creation and affected all creation. There was a time when the fauna of Earth didn't feed on each other. Fauna at some time were herbivores only. Then rebellion against GOD occurred. Sin occurred. Changed everything. Animals then turned against each other, and evolution continued to bring about carnivorous fauna.
Read:
The Science of GOD, by PhD Gerald Schroeder
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx
This occurred long before Adam and Eve. Modern man created in GOD's image was tricked into rebelling against GOD. Because sin didn't originate with us, we were fooled into it or tricked into it, we are given a second chance with GOD through the redemption of his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. That and the fact that he loves us deeply. We were made in his image, just a little lower than the Angels. He loves us so much so that he came down and paid the price and took our place on the cross and was crucified in our place.
That is true love. Would you do the same to save your loved ones? Would you be crucified and hung on a cross if it could save your family? Could you then raise from the dead and conquer death and overcome death and give the World hope of salvation?
Only one could possibly do that. Jesus the Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with Us.
Sometimes, knowing the future helps to understand and clarify the past. This is a great article in that regard:
The Millennial Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ
Matthew McGee
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/millen.html
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i love klim's little world of scientific orthodoxy. much more entertaining than ed hartouni's, which goes right over my head.
let's see--god creates us naughty-naughty so's he can come along and redeem us. nothing like creating a market for your own services. and a monopoly market at that.
meanwhile, back at that "hell of a good universe next door," it seems that all this old way of thinking has been left at the starting gate. time to rethink, thank, thunk the whole kaboodle. forget your angels, klim. forget your good and bad aliens. the universe has to be a lot better than all that. i just know this.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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weird little passage that Dood put up above... when you think of it as the basis of a scientific test, that we are all descendants of Noah's family...
if you Google "genetics of Noah" the first hit is a creationist web site which states that modern genetic studies affirms the bible stories in Genesis, including the flood. Of course they do no such thing, but it is interesting that the attempt is made to bend the results to support the "Bible hypothesis" and us it as "proof" a misappropriation of the hypothesis testing which can only negate a hypothesis...
The hypothesis is not quite consistent with the interpretation of the data, which you find on the wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test , in particular the map of human migration out of Africa, note that the legend is 1000 of years with the earliest data being 120,000 to 130,000 years ago, starting the migration.
Tony should be happy to dig into this as it is a science topic related to people... and cultures.
The hypothesis that all of us come from Noah can be tested, and unless Noah was an African and the flood happened more than 6,000 years ago, we can pretty much eliminate that hypothesis using genetics.
The Bible story may have value as a parable, but it certainly isn't an accurate history...
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jstan
climber
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If the present is any guide to the past, humans probably migrated out of Africa because conditions there had deteriorated. It came to me that it would have been very interesting to be there. But then for all we know we are going through just such a challenge today. It has all the hallmarks.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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DMT has a point, "Eve" was African as was "Adam"... in a metaphoric sense...
has there ever been such a depiction? I suspect not.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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DMT - really fine critique of what I had to say, thoughtful, intelligent and thorough. Good job.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Somebody put out a call for an oxymoron?
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