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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
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Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...)
That is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning. Apparently, they don't teach critical thinking in high school.
The subject of your faux-logical statement is "rock". The subject of the discussion on this Supertopo thread is also "rock". But, there are various meanings to the word, "rock". You have, using the trickery of advanced language skills, attempted to dupe us with your sophisticated sorcery.
As used in this Supertopo thread, "rock" means a large, massive and solid escarpment, suitable for recreational rock climbing; or the material from which that escarpment is composed.
There is a great deal of evidence that escarpments of this type can, and do, sustain harm and damage at the hands of people. To say that the Triple Cracks on the Shield have not been damaged by the repeated placement of pitons is absurd. If the Shield is too far up there for you, go look at Serenity crack from the base. It's right over there by the start of the Royal Arches.
I'll debunk your statement even further with this:
 limestone is a type of "rock" composed of calcium, carbon and oxygen
limestone, when heated, decomposes into calcium oxide and carbon dioxide
neither calcium oxide nor carbon dioxide are "rock" materials
therefore, the "rock" has been destroyed by the process of heating it
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
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Not to mention somehow paper destroys rock every time.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
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Paper does not destroy rock.
Rock breaks scissors
Scissors cut paper
Paper COVERS rock (or hides rock. Whatever)
EDIT
In the context of this thread, it should be noted that a straitjacket does not "destroy" a lunatic, it merely "covers" him, or "hides" him from others.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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Every single bolt placement made anywhere, should be considered carefully, on an individual, bolt by bolt placement. I see folks going up on the rock armed with tools and hardware, looking at it from the perspective of a project,i.e.. we've got 22 bolts and hangers, where should we put them?
Arne
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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This is precisely the root of the problem with this "progressive" thinking. If every climber thought this way we would be the worst user group on the planet. Of course rock can be destroyed, to say it can't is ridiculous.
We all agree that no single person "owns" the rock. We all share it. That's why these discussions are so important, IMO.
…
I wish you would take in consideration what the vast majority of climbers are asking from you. At this point I don't think the size of the bolts are the bigger issue.
We just want you to keep true to the hole count.
So, great aid climbers can write too? Well said.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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I guess the bigger question is what kind of pussy, ass, rock can break scissors, but can't break paper?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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You see this is why I'm not religious anymore.
To think that I used to be on the nanook hating band wagon. To think he's starting to come off as the sane one after all this.
The power of the Internet.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
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I just mentioned that that (the Salathe) climb has tons of new bolts, and that everyone is happy about them, as an example.
Yup sounds totally sane to me...
everyone is happy that a climb that showed el cap could be climbed with only 13 bolts is happy about tons of new bolts. As I mentioned that ship has sailed, but do you think Royal Robbins is happy about that?
Just like politics there are people who take things to far in both directions and get hateful about it. But that doesn't justify the opposite side of the issue.
As mentioned actions speak louder than words and bolts placed vs chopped will be the final decision on many particular climbs. However I hope there are always people that learn from discussions like these, like i have, and understand what climbing ethics and style are and why they are important. But there will also always be tone deaf people who can block out reasonable arguments so they can keep doing what they want and keep believing what they believe.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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This isn't that hard, given a few basic principles:
1) "Climbing" just is ascending by conforming yourself to what the rock presents as much as is humanly/technically possible at the time.
2) "Better style" just is most closely conforming yourself to what the rock presents than was done previously.
3) "Conformity to what the rock presents" just is using rock features without modifying those features in any way.
4) Drilling does not contemplate "features." By definition, each act of drilling is a punt regarding conformity to what the rock presents.
5) Thus, every act of drilling "reduces" the style of an ascent, making that ascent less an act of "climbing."
6) The same principles as above apply to such things as pounding pitons and other rock-destructive acts.
Now, none of the above imply that pitons, drilling, etc. are "bad" or even should not be done!
In fact, the act of putting up a new route JUST IS the act of establishing a "baseline" style of ascent for that patch of rock. So, that is completely consistent with "climbing." Any new FA in effect throws down the gauntlet to say, "This is the best style I believe can be mustered at this time by anybody with any gear." That's a responsibility that should be taken seriously, as it WAS with Salathe Wall.
If others (perhaps later and with better gear) can improve the style, thus ascend the same patch of rock by more closely conforming to the features of the rock, then such subsequent ascents establish the new "baseline" of acceptable style for that route.
The argument that we should never do FAs that involve ANY rock destruction because maybe somebody later with better gear can do the ascent "better" is mistaken. In general, FAs are well-done to the stylistic standards of the time. And we ARE reaching an outer edge of technology in terms of actually USING the features of the rock. Suction cups do no rock damage, but neither is using them "climbing," because there is NO attempt to ascend BY conforming oneself to the FEATURES of the rock.
Furthermore, the big problem we face is not that "so many" FAs are going up in crappy style. There are some, for sure. But THE problem this thread addresses is that EXISTING routes, even put up LONG ago, are now being TRASHED by simply ignoring the above principles that ARE about rock-preservation WHILE we do actually CLIMB. The problem of this thread is principle (5), whereby a HIGHER stylistic bar was established on the FA, and then some yahoo comes along to pussify the route BY adopting a lower style, less conforming to what the rock presents, and thereby:
MAKING AN ASCENT OF THE ROUTE LESS AN ACT OF "CLIMBING" THAN IT WAS WHEN THE ROUTE WAS ESTABLISHED!
Thus, ES and his ilk are actually attacking the very core of what climbing IS and what we are seeking BY doing it!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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What really pisses me off is generational arguments. Words like "museum" and "gym" climber. Trying to judge era's as if time or evolution are based on this. They're really different facets of a game. And the point is to respect all the different facets. Combine them or not to recognize them as being distinct is decidedly against human nature. Everyone cares to a certain extant and from that caring comes creativity as well as war. Most of us have ego's and want to be recognized for being disinct. There are very few self-less climbers, putting up climbs like Mandalas and erasing them or simply allowing them to evolve as DMT suggests. But to call what DMT suggests a generational thing to me is wrong. One could argue that climbing is either "evolving" or "devolving" with equal authority.....
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:19pm PT
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So. Someone needs to sh#t on somebodys ropes it appears.
That always fixes it right up. It's been said.
Never mind, not necessary as we have the newer version of that on supertopo, verbally shitting - woot?
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RyanD
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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Couchmaster is right, sh#t is the end of the line. Beats rock, paper, and scissors every time.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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I'm struck mostly by the impotence of those opposing what Erik represents. I'm not. Supertopo = never-has-been wankers from the past with irrelevant and ignorable opinions.
I have to say first-hand perspectives that stick to known facts like Ammon's carry about 1000x the impact of Tom's - who has not seen anything Erik has done yet is the thread's most verbose and frequent poster. Instead of fact, Tom's posts range from distorted speculation to pure childish slander. Suggestion Tom: STFU and/or drive to the Valley and actually do something.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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Supertopo = never-has-been wankers from the past with irrelevant and ignorable opinions.
LOL....
Another self-referential implosion from JLP.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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JillyPee, love her!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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I had a comment regarding the Salathe wall. I have done the route earlier this year. As I remember none of the pitches above freeblast had bolts. I thought it was a great job by the FA party to choose such a natural line of ascent.
The only bolts that I think have been added are at the belays. For a route as crowded as the Nose on some days, I didn't feel it was over bolted at the belay stations. There were actually a few junkshow anchors that would benefit from getting replaced by two bolts and a chain. Proud wall like the Salathe does not deserve a mix of old webbing connecting a bunch of old pins and frayed nuts. Of course it does not deserve convenience bolts neither.
I wonder what do other people think regarding replacing fixed junkshows with clean anchors? I think replacing pins, and other fixed gear on the pitches, would change the climb and should not be done for the most part. But how about anchors that are getting old on climbs that are getting more and more popular?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:20am PT
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If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
No one "owns" a route. And if we can't agree on our own arbitrary rules, some non climber will create the rules for us.
To bad they didn't offer history at your high school.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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Here's an idea...
Stop buying bolts and start a college fund for your child.
We aren't friends anymore.
You suck.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 23, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Suggestion Tom: STFU and/or drive to the Valley and actually do something.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you mean, "Hey, Old Guy. Get off your ass and go climb more, as in, do it now. Or shut the f*#k up."
Or, do you mean, "You have not done enough climbing that was cool, so you csn't SPRAY. So, just shut the f*#k up."
Or, do you mean, "I'll meet you in the Meadow. And then we'll see who is the baddest assed mo-fo, and we'll see who goes car-to-car, on Frenzy, no grabbing on gear."
Or, do you mean, "You might have had the high moral ground on Cosmos, but that was SO-O-O-O- long ago, I can now say, F*#K YOU TOM."
I don't understand tatttoos, piercings, Facebook and retrobolting.
It only makes sense that purveyors of those paradigms don't understand me.
I am astonished that someone would actually suggest that I need to STFU and go climbing on this thread.
STFU makes A LOT of SENSE - Mea Culpa.
But, the other part? How much more climbing, after 38+ years, am I expected to do?
Crustancient = crustacean + ancient = crabby and old
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