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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 23, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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Check this out, deep in the Obit:
Col est des Pelerins, from the North, with Robert Underhill and Miriam O'Brien
This links Charlet's influence directly to us! Recall that Underhill, a Harvard professor, was the one who brought ropework to the Sierra on his famous trip in 1931. We always credited Underhill's education in turn to "learning it in the Alps." But now I see that he was taught directly by the great Charlet, the leading guide in France between the Wars.
This is so cool!
And when Underhill got here, his eager students included Norman Clyde, Jules Eichorn and Glen Dawson, who became the leading climbers in both the High Sierra and the Valley (and even at Tahquitz) for at least the next decade. And they passed on the technique and the inspiration to the generations leading to us.
I hardly need to remind anyone here of the way that group tore through the Sierra in August 1931, making the FA of the East Face of Whitney, FA of Thunderbolt, FA of the North Couloir of Temple Crag, etc.
And in 1934 Eichorn, with other members of the newly-formed Cragmont Climbing Club, brought the first technical ascents to the Valley on both the Higher and Lower Cathedral Spires.
Let's bring this all the way back around to what, after all, started this thread. When I worked on the history chapter of Climbing Ice, Chouinard impressed on me Armand Charlet's crucial influence on the elegant French Technique -- surely the most subtle and beautiful culmination of the art of moving on steep neve if not outright ice. That's how they must have climbed, after all, the day he took Robert Underhill and Miriam O'Brien (soon to become Mrs. Underhill) along on that FA of the Col des Pelerins.
What I'm seeing now, for the first time, is Charlet's direct influence on us as rock climbers too.
I wonder if Charlet, who revived and led for a decade the ENSA, the Ecole Nationale de Ski et d'Alpinisme that trained French Guides -- I wonder if he ever knew how he helped set in motion rock climbing in California, which in a few decades evolved into a Golden Age that became the cutting-edge of rock climbing in the World?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Such a poignant perspective you're presenting to us here Doug!
(Pardon my alliteration)
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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May 23, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Very good resume of Charlet's life, but it does miss what may have been the greatest climb he ever attempted - and very nearly achieved: the first ascent of the north face of Grandes Jorasses via the Croz spur, in 1934, together with Ferdinand Bellin, another Chamonix guide who was an astonishing free climber for the standard of the 30's. Charlet did five attempts at the Croz spur, and the final one with Bellin could have been successful, if the weather had not looked sour, forcing them to return from more or less quote 3600. Charlet never used points of aid when rock climbing: had he succeded in finishing the route - and chances were that he could have - the whole history of mountaineering may have changed, as it would have demonstated that even the most difficult alpine faces could have been won in pure "western" style, and thus without the artificial methods used by "easterners" (Dolomite climbers etc). As it happened, both the Croz and the Walker spur where first climber using aid climbing.
Charlet influence on "western" climbers, particularly those active in Chamonix and Courmayeur was enormous, almost to mythical levels. Renato Chabod (who was Giusto Gervasutti's regular partner and followed him in the second ascent of the Croz spur, 48 hours after the first), once wrote "I had two gods: Grandes Jorasses and Armand Charlet", adding that seeing Charlet fail on the Croz spur had convinced him that the wall was impossible "by fair means". It was Chabod who coined the phrase "Charlet l'a dit", which ironically paraphrased the latin motto "Ipse dixit": "Charlet said it" (thus it must be so).
It's interesting to note also that the Walker spur was finally conquered by Riccardo Cassin, an "eastern" climber completely devoid of any kind psychological awe towards Charlet (and the Jorasses, to be honest).
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 23, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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The master, Armand Charlet
The disciple, Yvon Chouinard
both from Climbing Ice
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Mimi
climber
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May 23, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Unreal, DR! Now that's pure technique. 3 points gets you up. About 65-70 degrees is the limit isn't it? And people ski this!
Hmmm French technique...right where this thread started.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 24, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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It's pure alright, knocking right up against the limit of balance, and I think a little steeper than gets skied on any sustained slope. God -- I hope so!
Charlet's looks a tad steeper, but Yvon is on pure flinty water ice -- the 'schrund wall of the V-Notch. I don't think anyone skis that kind of burnished surface at any radical angles.
A lot of full circles here, especially when you count Charlet's influence on bringing the rope to California nearly 80 years ago.
We should have an anniversary party in the Palisades!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2009 - 09:19am PT
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Only if Glen will show up! Might need a mule...
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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May 31, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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On Dane Burns comment Jan 6, 2009 shows yellowed photos of an ad with Chouinard first generation alpine hammer on top, and on bottom is a Climbmax. Now the Climbmax I have is beautifully made where the head and handle holders are one piece and the handle holders are channeled and fitted into the handle. This photo shows that the axe head is attached to the standard Alpine hammer handle and the head holders are separate pieces. Maybe I have missed something but has this item ever been marketed?
All right whos got one out there? I really would love to see a better photo of one.
Rock on! Marty
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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May 31, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Steve Grossman, about your 1968 catalog, can you show us the prices page, pages 30,31 If it is the same as what I have. Chouinard sometimes put out many catalogs within the same year usually only changing the items in the back list.
Do you have any other Chouinard catalogs or pamphlets specifically 1957 - 1971?
Rock on!
Marty
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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May 31, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Hand forged Climax from an alpine hammer ?
"This photo shows that the axe head is attached to the standard Alpine hammer handle and the head holders are separate pieces. Maybe I have missed something but has this item ever been marketed?"
I also thought someone might have or at least seen one. May be DR? But no matter the climax that was forged from a alpine hammer blank would have been a much better climbing tool because of the added weight compared to the production version that came from Camp...the "toy" ice axe.
Dick Irvin is the other ice climbing connection (Scotland-California) from this thread that I really enjoyed finding out about.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=836643&msg=837109#msg837109
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Marty- I would be very surprised if more than one version of those early catalogs were produced. I only have that one 68 catalog in my collection prior to the 72 clean climbing catalog. Regrettably, I razor cut out some of the text on the price page for an art project long ago and would rather not torture you with the result.
Do you have a building for your trove or plans for the near future?
Cheers
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 17, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Marty: Here is my copy of prices from Chouinard 1968 prices. My notes show it was bought from Snug Mountaineering in Ketchum, Idaho. Most likely I grabbed it late fall or winter 1968.
Please let us know if prices are same as your copy. I do not have any Chouinard information prior to this. I was just getting into this avocation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Please excuse the hole and the bad assumption.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 18, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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Blasphemy Mr. Grossman!
I hope you were but a teensy teenager when you wrought such evil upon the sacramental parchment.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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So-----fellow Tacoites----as we say (in moments of total surprise) in posh salons here in Idaho, while sipping chardonay: "Damn! I'll be totally immersed in canine excrement" ----or a similar expression.
Marty was right. There were multiple price sheets for the 1968 catalog. It appears the one I posted is later than Steve's.
I was a Chouinard dealer from 1973-83, buddies with the reps, and I have no memory of multiple price lists in any year.
Marty: thanks for keeping us honest!
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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According to the "official" story on the Patagonia web site:
"Fortunately, there was an alternative: aluminum chocks that could be wedged by hand rather than hammered in and out of cracks. We introduced them in the first Chouinard Equipment catalog in 1972.
Within a few months of the catalog's mailing, the piton business had atrophied; chocks sold faster than they could be made. In the tin buildings of Chouinard Equipment, the steady pounding rhythm of the drop hammer gave way to the high-pitched, searing whine of the multiple-drill jig."
Any idea when CAMP started making Chouinard pitons? Presumably they made all of the ice axes and hammers until later years.
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scuffy b
climber
Sinatra to Singapore
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Jun 19, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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I'll have to check my "68" to see how it compares to these.
I have noticed different versions of what everybody would call
the 72.
My first one had the Klocker boots, but I've seen one that had
another make of ice boot (Molitor or Haderer, I think).
The version I now have has the regular pages with Klockers,
but the price list has the Molitor(?), plus numerous items not
pictured or described in the catalog text.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Jun 19, 2009 - 11:29am PT
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I would suspect the differerence is winter and summer price sheets. Lack of winter gear on Steve's might be a clue.
Camp started making the LAs for Chouinard in the late '70s. ('78?) Don't think they ever made the hammers and obviously always made the wooden shafter axes. They also made the hand forged heads of the earliest fiberglass axes.
The '78 catalog shows the Zero tools with what are obviously painted wooden shafts representing carbon and the first carbon shafted axe.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Roy- Too young and foolish was I to see my mistake. It was a beautiful coat of arms that I still remember but soooo not worth it now!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jun 19, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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RDB: I will agree that there must have been summer and winter catalogs. In fact I have a 1970 pamphlet-style Chouinard brochure that is short and mostly winter stuff.
On pitons: I recently did a bit of research on dates that Chouinard introduced different models of items. Before that I would have agreed that Lost Arrow production moved to Italy in about 1978.
Again to my surprise: it occured by the 1975 catalog per the below page.
I am going to stop trusting my memory!
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