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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 10, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
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California Department of Water Resources?
Those are the same guys who found $350 million to pay homeowners to rip out their lawns.
Nope, try to blame somebody else.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 10, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
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“The decisions were made with the best of intentions,” the report said, “but against the advice of civil engineering and geological personnel.”
“Although the poor foundation conditions at both spillways were well documented in geology reports, these conditions were not properly addressed in the original design and construction, and all subsequent reviews mischaracterized the foundation as good quality rock,” the report said.
The person who designed the spillway, the report said, had only “limited experience” with such work.
So they ignored problems, then hired somebodies friend, who must have been the lowest bidder. What could go wrong?
Why would anyone have any concerns about building more dams all over the place???
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 10, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
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Sounds like the St. Francis Dam all over again.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
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Oroville today, every single dam at some point in the future.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 11, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
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Every dam will fail, every skyscraper will fail, given geologic time...
Dams can be engineered safely. Many have. Others have been built on gypsum. Failure to understand geology ... is failure.
We can't all be astronauts, and not all engineers are created equal, unfortunately. Smart organizations have third party review teams of designs, construction, and operations. Routine. I suppose California didn't make the A team.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
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There are many dams which are going to end in disaster. Eugene, OR is going to end up 8ft underwater at some pint because of Hills Creek Dam, an earthen Dam which had hydro installed but has never been used for generating electricity because the PUC deemed it would lower the price of electricity too much. One day one of the MANY land slides which you can see around the reservoir is going to be too big and cause a wave which will wash over the berm and cause all the water to pour into two other dams.
Although, IMO, the real tragedy is how these dams stopped the flow of nutrients from the Pacific via salmon runs which account for 75% of the nutrients in the Pacific Northwest. Salmon proteins are found in core samples from old growth trees and its doubtful if they can grow as big or as fast without them. Will we ever see the bounty reported by Lewis & Clark ever again? When they were rowing up the Missouri they would fish using small hatchets because the fish were so big the river didn't cover them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2018 - 11:23pm PT
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You could pretty much apply the same critique to most dam managers in the country. Kind of a psychological deal with large infrastructure projects where folks want to assume the design is solid and that, once built, not much will will be required in the way of maintenance. The other half of that equation is that thinking about catastrophic failure isn't an institutional option so it isn't planned for from an operating perspective.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Can you sue dead people...?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Luckily, the repairs won’t be tested this year.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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From the L.A. Times:
A confidential Federal Railroad Administration risk analysis, obtained by The Times, projects that building bridges, viaducts, trenches and track from Merced to Shafter, just north of Bakersfield, could cost $9.5 billion to $10 billion, compared with the original budget of $6.4 billion.
From Merced to Shafter??
As over budget as the dam is, we could repair it 20 times for the cost of this useless bit of a train.
edit: And that doesn't include the damned trains.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Seriously? The ideology of unaccountable bureaucracy.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 10, 2018 - 11:17am PT
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whats the path forward?
In many ways we're on the path forward.
Today there are roughly 260 million vehicles registered in the U.S. How many of these will be powered by internal combustion engines in 20 years?
Imagine the evolution in battery technologies during that same time.
Compare the air quality in Los Angeles today to what it was 20 years ago.
It's interesting to observe that today the innovation is largely being done in the private sector, while government boondoggles enrich cronies at the public's expense. Would it be cool to have a bullet train from L.A. to S.F.? Sure. Is the dead end scam which is the "bullet train" taking place today what anyone can call the path forward?
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Feb 10, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
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T Hocking posted:
Butte Co. DA wants to sue DWR over damage to river during reconstruction.
http://www.chicoer.com/article/NA/20180207/NEWS/180209806
Could get expensive.
From that link:
Concrete and soil that went into the Feather River weighed about 2,000-3,000 pounds per cubic yard, resulting in a total discharge between 3.4 billion and 5.1 billion pounds, the lawsuit alleges.
Ramsey said the state Fish and Game Code Section 5650 allows for a civil penalty of $10 per pound of material, which could total between $34 billion and $51 billion. It is the oldest California environmental statute.
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TLP
climber
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Feb 10, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
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Probably is the oldest environmental regulation in California, likely dating from when large scale surface hydraulic mining was made illegal (it can still be done on a small scale within a flowing river, but that activity is on borrowed time too). The gargantuan mess being made by the miners was coming down river and the farmers, ranchers, and other landowners down in the Central Valley along the major rivers were understandably not happy at all. Just a new version of it, only the functional replacement of the foothills miners is the distant megafarms supplied by Oroville.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 10, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
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Could get expensive.
For the taxpayers/ratepayers. Those actually responsible will retire and enjoy a millionaire's pension (also paid for by the taxpayers) and never be held accountable.
The State can get tough when it wants to. They want to send this guy to State Prison for pumping 300,000 gallons of water out of his flooded cow pasture and into a ditch.
http://www.losbanosenterprise.com/news/local/crime/article186082403.html
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 11, 2018 - 12:57am PT
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From the article posted by T Hocking:
“Basically, you dump, you’re liable,” he (Ramsey) said. “In this case, there is palatable negligence in this dam environmental disaster.”
I don't think this is what Ramsey said at all, you moron.
And there ought to be a law against dumping, which there is, and it ought to be enforced, which it probably will be.
As for dairyman Areias, he certainly doesn't deserve prison. A stiff fine should suffice to even the scales of justice.
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TLP
climber
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Feb 11, 2018 - 08:58am PT
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Wow, I didn't realize that big of a percentage of the SWP went to metropolitan uses. Thanks for the excellent info. Still remote users for whom NoCal valley landowners wouldn't be happy to suffer the consequences from keeping the reservoir high. Totally agree about the residential irrigation rate idea, alas it's not feasible soon.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Feb 11, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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70% is not surprising, since the SWP was originated to provide water for residential and business use in southern California and SF bay.
Overall, agriculture uses about 4x what residential , business, government use in CA.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 11, 2018 - 11:08am PT
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State water project water users need to pay, in total, for the water they use and they also need to cover the liability of their water delivery system.
I'm with you on paying for the full cost of the delivery system. I'm not so sure they should pay full liability for someone else's incompetence.
If a levee protecting the city of Sacramento is allowed to be improperly built (by the state of CA) and later fails when it shouldn't have, should the city of Sacramento be liable for the full costs of that disaster? Or should it be the state agency (meaning state tax payers)?
I don't dismiss that regulatory capture is a real thing and it needs to be addressed, but I don't think that relieves the state agency from what should be their liability.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 11, 2018 - 11:20am PT
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If a levee protecting the city of Sacramento is allowed to be improperly built (by the state of CA) and later fails when it shouldn't have, should the city of Sacramento be liable for the full costs of that disaster? Or should it be the state agency (meaning state tax payers)?
If a levee is protecting Sacramento, it must mean that the place was built in a flood plain.
Shouldn’t the people who built in a flood plain bear responsibility for that stupid decision?
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