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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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A picture is worth 1,000 words so DMT has posted 50 godzillion words. Winner!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The phrase 'well-regulated' absent the word militia', i.e. out of context, means exactly what you say, but in context with the 'militia' it in no way implies what you say.
From the Constitution:
Article I, Section 8 enumerates the powers delegated to the legislature. Financially, Congress has the power to tax, borrow, pay debt and provide for the common defense and the general welfare; to regulate commerce, bankruptcies, and coin money. To regulate internal affairs, it has the power to regulate and govern military forces and militias, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
'Militia' never meant this:
In fact, the latter two represent an 'insurrection' that it was envisioned well regulated militias would be used to suppress.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Kris, the Oxford Dictionary is the wrong resource. You need to check Black's Law Dictionary for those definitions.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I think that most people really want laws that help keep the wrong weapons out of the wrong hands but allow legal owners that follow the rules the freedom to have what the want with reasonable restrictions.
What you are saying is quite well aligned with the Heller decision to which I referred, and at least for the time being that is the closest thing we have to a Supreme Court decision regarding the 2nd.
What I am trying to clear up by referring to the Oxford is the common misconception that the phrase "well regulated" meant then what it does today. This misconception fuels many false ideas as to the intent of the amendment.
FWIW my positions on gun control are also well aligned with the majority opinion of the Court in D.C. vs. Heller. Read a great book dissecting the arguments on both sides and the Court's final decision.
Landmark Supreme Court cases, DC vs Heller
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F
climber
away from the ground
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That's a super sweet beard that Escobangbang is sporting there!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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What I am trying to clear up by referring to the Oxford is the common misconception that the phrase "well regulated" meant then what it does today. This misconception fuels many false ideas as to the intent of the amendment.
No, you are not when you use it out of context with 'militia'. Used in the context of militia it denotes that said militias are not a bunch of unregulated joe blows with a gun fetish.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Healyje,
I don't think Article 1 has much to do with the Bill of Rights, which is largely a series of limitations on Federal Gov't power to prevent said gov. from running amok. I would argue that Federal control of State militias was the furthest thing from the framers minds.
Anyway gentlemen it's always fun. Gotta take the dog to the vet right now.
edit:
Used in the context of militia it denotes that said militias are not a bunch of unregulated joe blows with gun a gun fetish.
No one is saying anything about a bunch of joe blows with a fetish. What was meant by well regulated in 1789 was "something was operating properly, was calibrated, was performing as expected."
okay, gotta run.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's a matter of it providing contextual meaning to the notion of 'militia' from the time that, when combined with the definition of 'well regulated' you present, paints a far different view of 'well regulated militia' than our recent and highly activist decision on the matter.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Meanwhile Gov. Jerry Brown signs six gun-control bills, vetoes five.
I haven't done enough reading/thinking to know if I agree with any/all of these bills in principle. But I do know that I'm not too concerned because I can probably personally live with the restrictions without it impacting any guns I own/would want.
Of course if a zombie apocalypse happens I'll be pretty pissed I don't have a 30 round banana clip.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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The guy with the fifty looks like Locker
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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I was thinking the same thing. Where's cosmic's sister in all this mishegas?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Pretty simple, treat guns no differently than cars - gotta have a license, title, registration and insurance. Restrict guns the same way we restrict vehicles - certain vehicles aren't allowed on certain roads; some aren't allowed on any roads. One size doesn't fit all - guns for rural SE Oregon and guns for downtown Chicago need different regulatory controls. Make certain classes of weapons illegal to possess or transfer and implement a mandatory buyback program for those weapons.
It ain't rocket science, it's +300mil guns and that's easily too many by 2/3s - any definition of sanity would suggest knocking that down to a mere 100mil or so.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mason, right, the same guy who thought having a military was too dangerous. All those militias he envisioned would no doubt have dominated Germany and Japan in WWII.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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All those militias he envisioned would no doubt have dominated Germany and Japan in WWII.
That depends on the location of the conflict now doesn't it.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The phrase "well regulated" meant that something was operating properly, was calibrated, was performing as expected. This usage is different than today's, a definition of control and authority. In fact in the context of the amendment it means quite the opposite: The state needs a properly functioning militia to guarantee it's freedom, therefore the government shall not interfere with the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
And of course the ownership and use of weapons for personal use, to put food on the table or defend one's self was not in question. The idea of denying a person such a basic survival tool would have been considered absurd. So the entire point of the second amendment is to ensure that the central government cannot disarm the public with the intent of interfering with a free state. Good use of a resource Kris. I also think the OED would be helpful to better learn any lost historical intent of phrases, but I disagree with the conclusions you have drawn from it.
The examples provided suggest that "well regulated" means properly functioning within the examples cited, but it doesn't give any insight to what the Founders considered a properly functioning or "well regulated" militia. However, the drafters used their language carefully and the 2nd Amendment is the only place in the Constitution where the word "regulate" is used. It could very well be that they considered a properly functioning militia to have some organizational structure for its proper operation. It's my understanding that the Swiss have militias, though they store and secure their rifles after they train so that they aren't available to individual members. I can't think under any circumstances where the drafters would have thought that some of the yahoos you see packing firearms these days (particularly the ones with the "Tyranny Response Team" stickers on the back of their pickups) would constitute part of such a militia.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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When I see a quote like that from George Washington red flags go off and I google it and sure enough it's not real.
If you don't question something that obviously too on the money for supporting a political viewpoint you should really look at your biases and objectivity.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Those hippies in the first picture all have perfectly legal run of the mill rifles and shotguns it appears to me so what is your point?
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