NASA estimates 1 billion ‘Earths’ in our galaxy alone

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limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
Dang, I was hoping they had something special :(
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 17, 2016 - 08:40pm PT
This is a better reference that describes the specific design requirements, development, and testing of the RANCOR Rotary-Percussive Coring System for Mars including performance coring through different rock materials from soft sediment to basalt.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150004063.pdf

Note weight 2.8 kg

Keep in mind here that the objective is to search for organic biomarkers at the northern latitudes of Mars by drilling to at least 1 m depth below the surface and transferring sample to life-detection instruments.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 21, 2016 - 11:06am PT
some leisure reading of last week's Science (I get the print version so I can read it anywhere anytime without falling into a preference selection bias) had a very interesting piece in their "Insights" section.

Reading it I recalled the table from the article I linked in this post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2660470&msg=2764589#msg2764589

the table enumerated a set of step to get to intelligent life (or actually any life with sufficiently complex attributes, as the author points out the same calculation is valid if you want to know the probability of evolving a large, soft snouted animal like an elephant)...

The major steps:

1. Replicating molecules to populations of molecules
2. Unlinked replicators to chromosomes RNA as gene and enzyme to DNA and protein (genetic code)
3. Prokaryotes to eukaryotes
4. Asexual clones to sexual populations
5. Protists to animals, plants, and fungi (cell differentiation)
6. Solitary individuals to colonies (non-reproductive castes)
7. Primate societies to human societies (language)

and then goes on to estimate the probability of each step to obtain the probability of human-like intelligence.

These calculations are fraught with unknowns, and many of them are significant... the article in Science hints at two of these, though...

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/351/6274/659.short

Pathogen to powerhouse

Steven G. Ball, Debashish Bhattacharya, Andreas P. M. Weber

Summary

Mitochondria and plastids are essential for harnessing energy in eukaryotic cells. They are believed to have formed through primary endosymbioses, in which bacterial symbionts were converted into energy-producing organelles. Primary endosymbiosis is extremely rare: Only one other case is known, in the amoeba Paulinella (1). This rarity is usually attributed to the many innovations that are required for organelles to be integrated into the cellular machinery (2). However, the first challenges for an endosymbiont are to avoid being digested by the host and to replicate in its novel environment. Recent studies provide clues to how the precursors to mitochondria and the plastid overcame these challenges.




the bottom line is a real change of thought for me in terms of evolution... which I have thought of in terms of individuals instead of in terms of ecology... and in this case we turn our human bias on its head by realizing that what we consider "bad," a pathogen, might result in something "good," like the origin of the Eukaryota, step 3 in the table... and of the transition from protists to animals and plants, step 5...

the basic idea is that the competition among these very early single cell life included the action of pathogenesis, that one cell can infect another... if successful, that cell endures, reproduces and provides the genetic traits to the line of cells it reproduces...

so it is hypothesized that in this war of disease, which we as humans view pejoratively, resulted in an endosymbiotic relationship... which survives in us as our mitochondria...

this knowledge comes to us by learning just how the genetic information is stored, modified and evolves, and in our every increasing "decoding" of life's genetic material... allowing us to infer what happened and when it happened...

anyway it's a great read (for those of you who can get behind the paywall, or down to your local library to read the article)

you can read a more complex set of papers for free if you do the Google Scholar search:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22SG+Ball%22+%22D+Bhattacharya%22+%22APM+Weber%22&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

which finds a set of related research reports....



so maybe we are learning just how to do the calculation after all...
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Feb 21, 2016 - 11:37am PT
And for those not near the library or willing to pay past the wall-what is the probability of extraterrestrial evolution to, or beyond, our current state in this system?.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 21, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
that't the problem with making an argument based on the "anthropic principle"

we can't calculate the probability rick asks for...

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 21, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
It is probable that much of Mars's water is now tied up in permafrost. The atmospheric pressure is so low that frozen water sublimates, and it is present only at the poles, I believe, in small amounts. That might be what the drilling is about.

If you look at the vast deposits of porous media on Mars, I would guess that you would hit permafrost at relatively shallow depths. A hundred meters or so, but that is just a guess. The volume would be immense. Recovery as liquid water would be very difficult.

This has been published, but I don't have the citation at hand. It was just something that popped into my head only to realize that it had been explored before. I read about it a few years ago. There are a number of papers on the topic.

I've seen permafrost. Even in unconsolidated sediments, it behaves exactly like a slightly plastic concrete. It is tough stuff.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 21, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
I wonder if Mars is a deterministic system.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 21, 2016 - 05:59pm PT
"the bottom line is a real change of thought for me in terms of evolution..."

Curious, Ed, if you had known about mitochondrion origin theory in eukaryotic evolution before?

Just wondering is all. Please remember, fwiw, I don't consider us adversaries but team players in a positive sum environment (ecology, lol).

Thanks for posting up.


.....

Lynn Margulis, former wife of late Carl Sagan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis

PS

This is pretty cool from above link, as it somewhat applies to my own work, I never tire of hearing them...

"Your research is crap, do not bother to apply again"

"her formative paper, "On the Origin of Mitosing Cells," appeared in 1967 after being rejected by about fifteen journals."

I wish I had time to read her biography.

I didn't know this either...

"President Bill Clinton presented her the National Medal of Science in 1999."
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 21, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
Curious, Ed, if you had known about mitochondrion origin theory in eukaryotic evolution before?

from what I know, there are many details that have to be worked out... the pronouncement that evolution solves all the problems isn't very interesting to me... what is interesting is figuring out how life evolved, how these steps happened.

To me, the article is a very interesting twist... if you knew all about it before, good for you.

Lynn Margulis taught at UMass when I taught there... I am very aware of her work. In science, details matter, the recent Science paper helped me see some of the details. So I wrote about it here, as it is pertinent to the discussion of the likelihood of life I posted previously.

I was also, well aware of her receiving the National Medal of Science, Jim Cronin and Leo Kadanoff were awarded it in 1999 also, and I had met Kadanoff in the mid-1990s, Cronin I had met in the 1980s (I worked with a then former student of his)...






BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 21, 2016 - 06:54pm PT

It is probable that much of Mars's water is now tied up in permafrost. The atmospheric pressure is so low that frozen water sublimates, and it is present only at the poles, I believe, in small amounts. That might be what the drilling is about.

Base, maybe Mars is now like Earth was 4Bil yrs ago, right before life percolated up. i'd think you want to get over there and drill baby drill!

Who know's, maybe Man can "Determine" how a planet "Evolutionizes"?

i'd bet a cheeseburger "Fruity" would love to get over there first and determine only "Reasoning" cells would prosper..

Peace
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 21, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
Okay, thanks, I was just curious for context.

No I certainly didn't know "all about it" but I grew up with it in my biology, biochem and mol bio studies.

It is an idea, or system of ideas, that certainly helps flesh out the so-called Evolutionary Epic for those interested in that. I have always been.

Thanks for the reply.


PS

It occurs to me that perhaps at the time (1999) I learned of her recognition and medal by Clinton as well, but because of age and time so long ago and since being bombarded by new info to digest nowadays every single day there is a very good chance I just completely forgot the fact. In any case, good on Lynn Margulis.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 21, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
My question is: does anyone know whether Mars still has a molten core? I know the planet has no magnetic fields, but a molten core is something I haven't seen in print anywhere. This raised the question in my mind about a hot deep biosphere.

I've seen the photos from satellite imaging of the putative "water streaks," but the explanation of a high salt content didn't really satisfy me. The Molality would need to be extremely high, but low temperatures discourage dissolution of solutes (salts).
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Feb 21, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
This thread has encouraged me to do a bit of reading and I came across these papers...

Curiosity’s Mission of Exploration at Gale Crater, Mars
John P. Grotzinger, Joy A. Crisp, Ashwin R. Vasavada, and the MSL Science Team

http://www.geo.brown.edu/research/Milliken/GEOL0810_files/Elements_2015_Grotzinger.pdf
The 154 km diameter crater was targeted for exploration by the Mars Science Laboratory rover because it contains a thick sequence of sedimentary rocks including fluvio-lacustrine deposits that contain hydrous clay minerals indicating ancient aqueous environments and where prior investigations identified evidence of organic carbon.

On Mars, the term soil implies no biogenic component, as it does on Earth. It includes surficial deposits such as windblown dust and sand that may locally form small drifts or dunes, in addition to fragmented bedrock.

One of the surprising findings is the detection of ancient organics preserved in fine-grained sediments in the form of chlorobenzene.

On Earth, a planet teeming with microbial life, it’s difficult to identify hydrocarbons in rocks that are billions of years old. The discovery of organics depends on three processes: (1) enrichment in the primary environ- ment, usually by reduction of background sediment, which allows any organics to preferentially accumulate; (2) minimization of the effects of oxidative diagenesis during the conversion of sediment to rock (lithification); and (3) minimization of the thermal decomposition of organic molecules during burial. On a planet without plate tectonics and with a lithosphere that is thicker than Earth’s, thus reducing geothermal gradients, Mars is a better planet for reducing the risk of thermal degradation during burial. However, with its much thinner atmosphere, Mars poses a far greater risk of degradation by radiolysis once rocks are exposed at the surface (Farley et al. 2014; Mahaffy et al. 2015). Nevertheless, the point is that just as explorers of carbon in ancient rocks on Earth must optimize their chances of success, so must our robots on Mars.


RE the internal structure of Mars
http://planetary-science.org/mars-research/internal-structure-of-mars/

Like Earth, this planet has undergone differentiation, resulting in a dense, metallic core region overlaid by less dense materials. Current models of the planet’s interior imply a core region about 1,794 km (1,115 mi) ± 65 km (40 mi) in radius, consisting primarily of iron and nickel with about 16–17% sulfur. This iron sulfide core is partially fluid, and has twice the concentration of the lighter elements that exist at Earth’s core. The core is surrounded by a silicate mantle that formed many of the tectonic and volcanic features on the planet, but now appears to be dormant. Besides silicon and oxygen, the most abundant elements in the Martian crust are iron, magnesium, aluminum, calcium, and potassium. The average thickness of the planet’s crust is about 50 km (31 mi), with a maximum thickness of 125 km (78 mi). Earth’s crust, averaging 40 km (25 mi), is only one third as thick as Mars’s crust, relative to the sizes of the two planets. The InSight lander planned for 2016 will use a seismometer to better constrain the models of the interior.


And there's this paper on the..
Structural analysis of the Valles Marineris fault zone: Possible evidence for large-scale strike-slip faulting on Mars
An Yin*
DEPARTMENT OF EARTH AND SPACE SCIENCES AND INSTITUTE FOR PLANETS AND EXOPLANETS (iPLEX), UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90095-1567, USA, AND
STRUCTURAL GEOLOGY GROUP, CHINA UNIVERSITY OF GEOSCIENCES (BEIJING), BEIJING 100083, CHINA
LITHOSPHERE; v. 4; no. 4; p. 286–330. | Published online 4 June 2012.

According to Yin's work, Mars is tectonically active, at least, in the Valles Marineris region (the longest canyon in the solar system) which appears to be a large scale left-lateral, strike slip fault.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 21, 2016 - 11:16pm PT
So many steps along the way seem incomprehensively complex and unlikely. The step in life on earth that blows me away the most...by far is RNA Polymerase. SO complex it makes DNA look like a basic hydrogen atom. Yet absolutely critical to life as we know it. DNA seems useless without it. WTH was life before it?

Yet these things and steps happened... A billion years is also an incomprehensibly long time. Sure you can do the math.. but the reality of it? Yeah it's big.. and time can allow incredible things... and whatever life was before RNA Polymerase .. the process of natural selection is super speedy compared to a billion years.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2016 - 03:04am PT
the pronouncement that evolution solves all the problems isn't very interesting to me... what is interesting is figuring out how life evolved, how these steps happened.

Well, I would expect nothing less from a physicist or chemist - understanding the how is fundamental to what you do. Biology in this respect is a pretty messy and complex space at all scales and the root physical 'how' of it often isn't the driving imperative. Those are certainly fundamental and very interesting questions but, in the face of how little we know about biology, I think it is just a much more distant priority compared with the challenges associated with basic survival in today's world. I think in general the question of how life started doesn't impact the field of biology in quite the same way as the question of how the universe began impacts physics.

And hell, we have a tough enough time just sorting out 'easy' questions like human origins in very recent time frames let alone tracking back the ancient roots of endosymbiosis. Thank goodness human evolution reached a point where we can broach low earth orbits which has led to more funding for astrobiology, expanded studies of extremophiles and increased focus for the questions surrounding the origin of life.

Also, if you compare what happened in the field of genetics in the mid-to-later 20th century to what happened in physics in a comparable time frame in the 19th century, I'd say you physicists have about a hundred year head start on biologists.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 22, 2016 - 08:23am PT
From the above, that Mars has sedimentary rocks: it will take an experienced field paleontologist to do some potential "fossil hunting." The presence of "organic matter" has a different meaning to an organic chemist than it does to the majority of population. Organic--to a chemist, simply means Carbon containing, or Carbon based molecules.

That Mars is presumed to have a still molten core suggests the potential for life in various vents or fumaroles. The more we learn, the less we really know...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 08:38am PT
I think in general the question of how life started doesn't impact the field of biology in quite the same way as the question of how the universe began impacts physics.

An interesting impression on the fields, but perhaps it needs a bit more expanding. At the onset let me say I have no idea how the origin of life will affect biological thinking, but if physics is a guide, my guess is that it will be significant.

One has to look at physical cosmology in view of its history. Hubble's realization that nebula were galaxies greatly expanded the physical universe. Einstein's cosmological constant, put into the General Relativity to keep the universe static, was abandoned once Hubble observed that all the galaxies were receding, implying an expanding universe.

The cause of the expansion was unknown, and various theories were proposed. Fred Hoyle had his favorite, and pejoratively named a competing theory "the big bang." The Big Bang Theory predicted the temperature of the cosmic photon background, which was discovered in 1964, this background now cooled to low temperatures is visible in the microwave part of the the spectrum, thus the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB). That an the abundances of the light elements in the universe, most of which were produced in the early big bang era, were the mainstay of physical cosmology.

We used to snark that factor of two uncertainties in the exponent were quality physical cosmology measurements.

Several long threads started to weave together, "precision" cosmology measuring the variations of CMB across the sky, the very much refined measurements of Supernova recession velocities, the observation of gravitationally lensed background objects, vastly improved measurements of the "rotation curves" of all sorts of collections of objects across the cosmological scales, and the realization of theorists that our best modern theories should result in a finite cosmological constant brought us the realization of great importance to physics:

most of the mass of the universe, 98%, is made up of stuff we cannot see directly, and the remaining is what "the visible universe" is made of...

Cosmology was a side show in physics until the 1990s, an interesting pastime by a small group of physicists. Today, nearly everything of importance we will do in the next 20 years will be focused on understanding that "dark" stuff, the Dark Matter and Dark Energy, of which we have very little understanding except from cosmology. It forms the subject of great importance to understanding what the universe is.

This is so important that a field like High Energy Physics (HEP), in which I trained and worked as an experimentalists at the many accelerator laboratories around the world, will become a field in which the experimentalists will be observational cosmologists, trying to tease the answers to the most important questions in HEP out of what we can see in the universe.



The major difference between Biology and Physics is the role theory plays in the research. Biology is changing, for the better, with the increased specialization... and the opportunity for doing theory viewed from physicists making the transition to biologists, theoretical biologists.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2016 - 10:09am PT
theoretical biologists

Definitely! But as I said, you guys do have a significant leg up on biology. The fact that there are now lots of multi-disciplinary teams with cross-overs from physics to biology and vice-versa really helps as does the development of a capability for modeling in the form of computational biology.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 22, 2016 - 12:23pm PT
Healyje-

The field most helpful in doing that sort of crossover is Physical Biochemistry! That was actually my discipline in Graduate School, and my resulting Doctorate, as well. Sadly, for these discussions here, I haven't worked in the field for--a LONG time. My actual career was in specialized organic synthesis with an emphasis on peptides and non-naturally occurring amino acids; also did MAJOR work on the manufacture and development of solid-phase supports ( "resins" )for multistep organic synthesis, ala Merrifield Resin. I played something of a role in the development of Fuzeon manufacture by Roche.

That said, I can still read much of what is written these days and comprehend. The degree of specialization these days makes one's own work visible only down through a drinking straw.

Earlier in this discussion thread, I reveled in the discussion of the Urey-Miller experiment. The mere fact that work of this type--"Cosmochemistry"--was done in the early 1950s with archaic instrumentation boggles one's mind. The guy I worked for at UCSC as a postdoc would be the kind of scientist needed in this discussion, as well as some of our colleagues: Harry Noller-discoverer of the S 30 Ribosome, and Edward Dratz, one of the guiding lights in chemistry of vision (my field).
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
Einstein's cosmological constant, put into the General Relativity to keep the universe static, was abandoned once Hubble observed that all the galaxies were receding, implying an expanding universe.

Not all...... ;)
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