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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 21, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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The great mystery in all the politics, religion, evolution, climate change, and other OT threads is how so many otherwise functional, rational people can believe such batshit craziness that is so illogical, insupportable, contrary to all evidence, against their best interests, etc., etc.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 21, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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I disagree....as you can see
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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these people need some kind of cure. we should feel sorry for them. they REALLY don't believe this nonsense they're spewing out--they're actually crying for someone to come and rescue them from their sorry-ass closed-loop thought processes.
part of the problem is jesus, of course. poor, milquetoast, spineless, effeminate pigeon jesus. if you saw "dogma" (mentioned early on this thread), they tried to float the idea of "buddy jesus". that would work much better--smiling, positive, thumbs-up guy, even though he's still wearing beard and sandals. was jesus a redhead? seems to be depicted that way for some reason. why is that?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Wanda,
On judgement day you can ask GOD that very question.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 21, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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"they're actually crying for someone to come and rescue them from their sorry-ass closed-loop thought processes."
-damn straight.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 21, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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About equivalent a refutation as quoting scripture, but I prefer it, luggi.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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klimmer--
jesus, poor cuss, suffers way too much. the guy needs a break--and a girlfriend.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 21, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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I respect others whom have differing opinions..and grow from debates...what is distrubing is there are self proclaimed experts, who's opinion is not from any known basis, who must enjoy the reverberations of their own key strokes and disillusioned themselves as legends in their own minds......I move on...Norwegian must have something posted somewhere that I can follow....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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Tony,
My soul is happy. I love my family. I love my wife and kids. We all love GOD and try to live by his word everyday. Sometimes we trip and fall, since we are human, but there is forgiveness. We are not perfect yet. Perhaps one day. We are a work in progress.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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"happiness is temporary, believe me, i know.
"it can arrive as a shining crystal and leave as the melting snow." -- joan baez (and she's a believer)
from catechism class 'way back in catholic days: "god made me to know, love and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him in heaven."
always bothered the heck out of me as a kid. you mean--god won't make me happy?
the god package does not deliver happiness. if you think that, klim, you could be cruising for a bruising. it isn't about happiness. jesus died one of the worst sorry-ass deaths you can imagine, and if you want to be close to jesus and not just riding on his coattails like freddy the freeloader, you better brace yourself for as much of that crown-of-thorns-gethsemane-sweating-blood-bruised-derided-cursed-defiled pain as you can take. it's not about the good life. forget about the good life.
america is about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. i think that's a great little dedication and i subscribe to it heartily, but i've noticed in my own life that pursuing something is quite different from getting it. remember that song about "the bright, elusive butterfly of love"? (a 60s song--before your time maybe.) it's like trying to catch a butterfly without a net--better just to watch it while you can. it's pretty, but it isn't yours.
back to my greeks (sorry). the greeks have a better word, eudaimoneia. "good spirit". happy is a seductive word. it's related to "happen". if something happens your way, you're "happy". if not, you're unhappy. try to find eudaimoneia--it won't be dependent on circumstances. or jesus. it'll come from within, and you will be independent. i do declare.
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go-B
climber
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May 21, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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Proverbs 9:10, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
Great Are the Lord's Works
Psalm 111, Praise the Lord!
I will give thanks to the Lord with my whole heart,
in the company of the upright, in the congregation.
2 Great are the works of the Lord,
studied by all who delight in them.
3 Full of splendor and majesty is his work,
and his righteousness endures forever.
4 He has caused his wondrous works to be remembered;
the Lord is gracious and merciful.
5 He provides food for those who fear him;
he remembers his covenant forever.
6 He has shown his people the power of his works,
in giving them the inheritance of the nations.
7 The works of his hands are faithful and just;
all his precepts are trustworthy;
8 they are established forever and ever,
to be performed with faithfulness and uprightness.
9 He sent redemption to his people;
he has commanded his covenant forever.
Holy and awesome is his name!
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
all those who practice it have a good understanding.
His praise endures forever!
Proverbs 21:16, One who wanders from the way of good sense
will rest in the assembly of the dead.
Proverbs 21:21, Whoever pursues righteousness and kindness
will find life, righteousness, and honor.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 09:21am PT
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paste the whole effing bible into that window. that'll prove everything once and for all.
the other thing i distrust is this apparent need to be flattered. a buddhist god would never need flattery. if you meet the buddha on the road, kill him, and all o' that.
i'll bet largo still checks this thread. here's the deal on za zen, dood. it's one of two japanese buddhist traditions. zen is warrior buddhism. it's what you do to prepare yourself for battle, basically. you'd better learn to listen for the sound of one hand clapping--keeps your ears sharp for the swoosh of a samurai sword. but the other tradition is farmer buddhism, something they call "pure land" buddhism. that "pure land" is one flaking dead ringer for your garden variety christian heaven, except for the pearly gates.
it doesn't surprise me that a world class climber would choose the warrior way. but if you want a bigger picture, read dumeziel. three parts to every society in our stage of human differentiation: farmers, warriors, priests.
did you get tired of being a warrior and decide to become a priest?
germans have a great little proverb: wie dumme der bauern, wie großte das kartoffeln : the dumber the farmer, the bigger the potato. try the farmer way when all else fails. being dumb and vegetating has its place.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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Dr. F,
You are out of your league. Read Michael Drosnin's Book, Bible Code and you will know that yes, Bible Code has predicted events before they have taken place. There is even evidence that the nation of Isreal, their Department of Defense used the Bible Code to know exactly when Sadam Hussein would fire skud missiles into Isreal.
Also watch the videos I posted concerning Bible Code.
Yes, even the military intelligence of nations have used it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 21, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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'll bet largo still checks this thread. here's the deal on za zen, dood. it's one of two japanese buddhist traditions. zen is warrior buddhism. it's what you do to prepare yourself for battle, basically. you'd better learn to listen for the sound of one hand clapping--keeps your ears sharp for the swoosh of a samurai sword. but the other tradition is farmer buddhism, something they call "pure land" buddhism. that "pure land" is one flaking dead ringer for your garden variety christian heaven, except for the pearly gates.
it doesn't surprise me that a world class climber would choose the warrior way. but if you want a bigger picture, read dumeziel. three parts to every society in our stage of human differentiation: farmers, warriors, priests.
----
Close, but no cigar.
Zen is divided into two basic sects: Rinzai and Soto. Rinzai has marshal art influences, was popular in Japan amongst the Samurai, the warrior-class, and is big on studying koans and practicing Zazen. Soto zen is a subtler and less driven kind of approach, which also uses koans to increase insight, but doesn't have the whip cracking from the old Japanese mentality.
So far as the "bigger picture" goes, no true zen dood is going to let you get away with that statement unchallenged. To insinuate that zen has a limited perspective, you'd first have to show me where the edges of awareness are so I understand the parameters that you speak of imply.
The other line of inquiry concerns zen being in conflict or opposition to something. That also is impossible since zen has no "content," least of all well wrought ideas, theories, facts, math equations, photos of Baby Jesus, lightning bolts, ten penny nails, lieback cracks, chiseled briskets and so forth.
Any "thing" or "stuff" or "form" you can mention or imagine in not zen. The opposite is also true, since emptiness is form and form is emptiness - exactly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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so, i take it, your zazen was/is being done through soto? my japanese consultant tells me rinzai and soto were both founded about the same time (14th century?) by different monks. your characterization of the two is accurate, though perhaps prejudiced by your affiliation. my consultant's reaction: "if he does zazen, he has my respect." not an easy thing to earn.
my japanese inlaws, btw, were soto. no reflection on your experience, but i wish it would have done a better job with their hearts and souls, as they turned their backs on our family in inexplicable cruelty.
meditation has always eluded me. i think some are born to meditate, others are not. my mind has always been full, and efforts to empty it inspire rebellion. my own discipline involves study, memorization and thought. thought is an important word to me, and i don't have to be told i am because i think. in teilhard's sense, thought is the cutting edge of evolution in which we are all privileged to take part. it's the heart of all adventure, and adventure is basically a very spiritual thing. not just climbs and the like. making a table out of the elm branch that blew down in my back yard last year has been a wonderful adventure for me, as much as climbing and skiing.
as a writer, sense is important to me. thoughts are couched in words, but words are so often inadequate. "the sound of one hand clapping", to me, is something that i can see clearly does not make sense and should be dismissed. screw the guru who says otherwise. if you stuff such koans into your brain, or empty your brain through the koans--or whatever it is y'all do with them--perhaps you will wake up (someday) enlightened or realized or in a new place better or at least clearer than you were before. have you? or perhaps you will deliver sentences like your last, which makes no sense to me at all. trying to lay a koan on me?
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 22, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Dr. F....back your shiz up.....you spew stuff off the cuff with nada...name your stuff or bow out...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 22, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Tomy wrote:
". . . as a writer, sense is important to me. thoughts are couched in words, but words are so often inadequate. "the sound of one hand clapping", to me, is something that i can see clearly does not make sense and should be dismissed. screw the guru who says otherwise. if you stuff such koans into your brain, or empty your brain through the koans--or whatever it is y'all do with them--perhaps you will wake up (someday) enlightened or realized or in a new place better or at least clearer than you were before. have you? or perhaps you will deliver sentences like your last, which makes no sense to me at all. trying to lay a koan on me?"
Actually, the frustration you voice here is not a bad thing at all. It's natural enough insofar that you're trying to wrangle spiritual matters with the evaluating part of your mind - basically trying to wrangle no-thing with ration and words, which are made to ONLY deal with things.
What happens when you force your mind to focus on no thing - like the sound of one hand clapping. You really think this is an exercise in trying to hear a sound?
The fact that "The sound of one hand clapping" does not make sense is not the stopping point, but the starting point, and what needs to get dismissed is not the koan, but the evalauting mind. But "you" can't dismiss it because the agency that would do the dismissing is in fact the evaluating mind. The koan is the lever to transcend the evaluating mind precisely because it doesn't make sense.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 23, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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thus the buddhist approach to ... enlightenment, one of several contemplative traditions. each claims great achievement, yet each is different and the achievements are not quite the same. yoga--many approaches to yoga there--is another one, and christians have their own. i know of no serious noncatholic involvement in this, although there is much alleged mysticism among the more flambouyant nondenominationals with their speaking in tongues and revivals. more orgiastic than contemplative perhaps. i'm most familiar with catholicism, and there are several serious contemplative orders and claims to extraordinary mystical experience--st. theresa of avila, st. john of the cross most prominently, but scads of saints and many contemporaneous catholics who have discovered a mystical karma and allegedly spend many moments with god. notably the notorious roy campbell in the last century, but an active community today as well. your obliquification--if i may coin a word for your description of how one works with koans--reminds me of the rosary devotion. you say the prayers, you meditate the "mysteries" at the same time. put all your being into it. it isn't about the words of the prayers. it isn't about the subject of the mysteries. they are supposedly the starting points.
well, john, you have my respect as well as my wife's for all that, but i guess i'd like to ask you where it has taken you, if you're at all inclined to put it into words. it seems to have taken you to a rather heavy academic program in process theology, which is one step beyond where the average monk winds up.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 29, 2010 - 09:03am PT
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kurt vonnegut had an interesting note on hammurabi. he said most people think "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is the old testament ethic and that it has been replaced with the new testament ethic of "turn the other cheek". "eye for an eye" is actually an old testament quotation of hammurabi's code, which was well-known at the time, and hammurabi's sense is "ONLY an eye for an eye, ONLY a tooth for a tooth--don't take more".
a very humane code. so many christians so often take more. you can only keep turning that other cheek so long.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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May 29, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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Why do I believe in God, seriously?...
I guess originally it was first curiosity, then hope, and eventually overwhelming demonstrable proof "which leaves absolutely no room for doubt." (
The Case for the Ressurection of Jesus by Gary Habermas, GotQuestions.org.)
Hope of living again and absolute comfort in knowing that I'm going to experience eternal life is comforting as well. (John 3:16)
What have you got to lose by believing? Well, that's easy...your soul in eternal misery in a place called hell separated from Jesus Christ forever. All a hoax you might concede? I'm not willing to take that chance and for those that are...I say a prayer for you often for this is what God commands me to do.
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