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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 11, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
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Christ(ofer) really loves you. Like really really loves you. You.
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Hi High T. I enjoy your posts and agree with your reasoning. Good man.
Did I win?
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go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
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May 12, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
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...what could we do without Jesus?
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
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Believe what you want flip flop..
I grew up in a very serious Christian family and I can tell you other then a few basics, Christians are not a unified homogenous group. "Christian" is mostly just a label and its primary belief is a belief that Jesus was the son of God. That isn't generally up for debate, but its meaning certainly is. Some people who call themselves leaders want people to think its homogenous, because that gives them political power. But it is not. I have been in numerous situations where churches split because of differences in beliefs.
Both my parents take their faith seriously and would consider themselves to be conservative Christians, , but my dad votes mostly republican and my mother votes mostly democrat. They often laugh that they cancel each others votes out. I know that this also happens in many Christian families. There are of course families who tend to vote together. My brothers family is that way. They are mostly staunch Texas republicans though they did not vote for McCain or Romney. They just didn't vote for President in those elections. My sister and her husband also mostly vote the same. They would also call themselves conservative Christians. They mostly vote democrat.
So you go right ahead and continue to try and put a big fat label on Christianity, and I will continue to tell you that you are mistaken. Are there trends? certainly,.. but it is not an exact science.
I believe it is a big mistake to label people. Labeling can alienate people, making change even more difficult.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
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I believe it is a big mistake to label people Individuals can be labeled and should be when their actions are destructive to society.
When religions become destructive to society they should be held accountable for their actions, not their beliefs.
To take an extreme example the Branch Davidians. FDLS polygamists with child brides coerced by their parents.
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
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I agree that labels can be used, I just also believe that they are sometimes too readily used because its easier to do rather then try and understand a complex subject.
Republicans are for war. well, sort of
Liberals are spend spend spend.. well.. they sort of used to be but have shifted from that for the most part.
Oh wait, Obama is spending like crazy.. well yes.. thats part of how you get out of a recession. But doesn't that mean he is a spend spend spender? yes.. but that isn't always bad. Just as sometimes we do need to go to war.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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May 12, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
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Agree John M.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 12, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
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It's not any kind of science. It's sheer lunacy and sadly you are just another victim of childhood indoctrination. Your words aren't coherent. Sorry. Your fancy creation mythology is a lie. A big fat hate-filled lie. Nothing personal of course. Ignorance isn't a crime, just a shame. Willfull ignorance is something else entirely. That is why you can't accept facts but readily embrace imaginings from a book of known lies. Again, it sounds harsh, but the real crime is religion and the ignorant hate that it pushes on innocent children. You've burdened yourself with labels about yourself.
What percentage would you guess that Jesus is the Son of God?( as an estimate of probability?)
Follow up: whose Christianity is more correct, yours, your moms or your dads? If it divides families what good is it?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
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John M
Now I understand you better. Fair enough
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 12, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
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Individuals can be labeled and should be when their actions are destructive to society.
What about when ur proud to be of a label? Joe Montana was proud to be called a 49'er. Obama is proud to be called president. The only thing I'm proud of is being a brother in Christ. I'll take that label everyday! Hell, I'm even think'in of tattooing it on my forehead, if I didn't think it would send me there.
Idont think Christians should learn everything from one preacher. Or one church. Decifering and understanding where the differences lie between the different sects can only strengthen the whole body of Christ. After all God is in every church, He jus blesses some more than others.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
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I know some fine Christians/Muslims/Buddhists and they are OK with my atheism. They have a right to their beliefs even if I think they are a bit deluded. Do Christians really believe jesus ascended to heaven? It's OK with me if they do. Some people need mysterious explanations for the unknowns in this world. I don't.
A couple of them are PhD scientists and engineers and excellent at it. I can't reconcile that belief with reality but if they can, OK. It's actions that matter.
Possibly they pick and choose which parts of their religion they want to believe. The great religions of the world have some good moral principles. It's individuals that make a mockery of the principles.
I'd rather not think of anybody by a label, self proclaimed or not.
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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That is why you can't accept facts but readily embrace imaginings from a book of known lies.
This flip flop is why I think that you too readily jump to labels. You don't know me. You claim you don't understand what I am saying, but then you decide that I believe in some book.
For your information, the last time I visited my family, I challenged their preacher and was labeled a heretic by the preacher and parts of my family. Do you know what a heretic is?
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
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They have a right to their beliefs even if I think they are a bit deluded.
And they would think you are deluded too.
So what is the truth? Since both sides see each other as deluded.
You see how this goes?
This why the absolute truth is so important although modern science completely rejects anything to do with such a thing as "Absolute Truth" ....
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
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We should heed the implicit warning from the Muslim countries who've been taken over or cowed by religious extremism.
After all our once noble (not sarcasm) Republican party has been hijacked by religious fundamentalists.
Which is precisely what the First Amendment warns us about. Keep religion out of government. Respect others' religions. We ignore that wise advice at our peril.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
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You and I will never agree on that one Werner. There are no absolute truths. There are facts and physical laws. There are beliefs. There are even profoundly held beliefs. Mine and yours are diametrically different. Neither of us is likely to persuade the other. Neither of us needs the other's belief system to lead a meaningful and moral (with a few lapses I'm sure) life.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 12, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
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and with that it's Sayonara for the night.
Fred
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 12, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
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Uh? Really?
Try this: 'Heretic' is a label that religious authoritarians use to threaten their followers with the eternal wrath of god. It is a threat of eternal violence and oppression if you don't blindly follow dogma. It is also a term used to justify burning innocent people at the stake.
You keep making my points for me.
Werner, The difference is that religion is constantly proved to be wrong but planes fly because science.
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
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their followers
nope… wrong again..
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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May 12, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
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No you're wrong. I can't be a heretic because I dismiss the concept as hate speech. Or are you an infidel? I'm not. Nor am I a sinner, a gentile or the devil. I refuse to accept religious labels of hate. Not like you.
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
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I can't be a heretic because I dismiss the concept as hate speech.
you are missing my point. You labeled me a believer of a certain kind. one who follows a certain book. I showed you that you were mistaken. My own family believes that I am a heretic because I don't accept the bible as the inerrant word of God. But you want to jump to conclusions about me because you see an enemy out there and want to smash it.
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John M
climber
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May 12, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
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I refuse to accept religious labels of hate. Not like you.
you edited your post.
I don't accept that I am a heretic. That is my families opinion, not mine.
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