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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Jim
be it novice, new climber, or here on the forum, "noob"
we owe to those entering the sport to have a level of respect, dare it be said, courtesy, when they ask a question worthy of a novice.
IT seems here a question about what may seem the obvious, gets flamed.
Thus the person is turned off, goes elsewhere to get info about what he or she would actually like an answer to.... even if it is about cleaning a route, bolting, or whatever other no no the ethics police would condemn them for even asking.
in other words the environment here is sometimes a little harsh on the climbing related, on topic question, that is deemed by some as being not consistent with their values or climbing ethics.
Maybe we could all take a breath and do the Rodney King thing, and possibly even seperate the ethics from the knowledge, use, and questions about gear or technique.... with that there could be more questions, and more learning for all of us, about our sport and the stuff that comes with.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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hey there guys and tami... wow, say, thanks... i'd never know...
good thing i don't climb... :O
but--i do like the colors that the climbers gear is, and it does look neat against the rock---but i SURE better add this now:
when done PROPERLY...
thanks for guiding this ol' lost sheep...
>:D<
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Here we go, this one's cleaner. Retrobolts again, aren't they all?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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I couldn't agree with you more Ed. There is no such thing as a dumb question. ST should always be inclusive rather than exclusive. When I post topics that question things and trends that I see, I always keep it general with no mention of specific individuals. My idea is to generate discussion not to denigrate anyone, although not everyone sees them that way. Good weather forecast, off to the desert, back Sunday night.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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Larry's second belay-anchor photo is a classic example of belay bolts placed too closely together. No doubt they're convenient to use, at least for optimists, and less equipment may be required. But given that much bolted/sport climbing happens on rock of dubious quality, not very secure. Very edumacational.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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There is at least one climber (and climbing writer) named Viola.
And on the non-climbing side, there is an entire website devoted to viola jokes. Apparently other musicians look down on viola players.
Examples:
What's the difference between a violin and a viola?
1. The viola burns longer.
2. The viola holds more beer.
3. You can tune the violin
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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I see those too-close placements all the time, though. I suppose the drillers are motivated
by the length of their chains?
When I was a young n00b and still using pitons, I reached a belay ledge already occupied
by Jim Logan, who had come up by a different route. I pounded a piton into the same crack
his anchors were in, and started to set up my belay.
Jim gave me a dirty look and whacked both his anchor pins a few times, to be sure that my
placement hadn't expanded the whole crack and made his own anchors unsafe.
"That's a big piece of rock," I remarked, thinking he was being overcautious.
"So is Boot Flake," Jim replied. I shut up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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I thought a viola was a violin that had let itself go.
Oops!
This is supposed to be a non-climbing thread whining about non-climbing threads.
Whine away.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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In terms of belays and reliability, bolts placed too close together may be the single thing that, if changed, would most increase climber safety. Given that the rock in many 'sport' climbing areas is unreliable, it's foolish to place bolts too closely together in such places. I believe that the manufacturers recommend an minimum separation of 10 times the diameter of the bolts, but only for impeccable rock. Generally much more is appropriate for soft or fractured rock, although it requires longer chains etc if the bolts will also be used for rappelling. (Perhaps Greg B can chime in regarding this?)
Several times I've seen rocks at the base of cliffs, with intact closely-spaced belay bolts and chains attached. Not very confidence inspiring. And then there's anchors such as those sometimes seen at Red Rocks, and other places with soft or broken rock - not only close together, but with badly-worn "cold shuts" (or equivalent) attached. Badly worn because too many climbers are lazy.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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You know, Jim D. sometimes you surprise me.... I just spent a few minutes looking for TR’s you might have started and I found none.....please advise on this. You have to have SOME here.... you climb a lot still and have so since the late sixties. And perhaps you have missed the fact we now have three parts to the Forum: the Forum, The Recent Route Beta, and the Trip Reports sections.
It looks like you spend most of your time here contributing to threads, often cogently, but for the most part you are an “also ran” even though you tower above many here in your experience. And the threads you have started of recent are of course funny and engaging but they are not TRs. Point your question at yourself; it would be considerably more significant of you if you were able to grunt out some of the many incredible tales to which you have been a part and do this with some width and breadth. Some emotional disclosure too won’t hurt you. You have literally thousands here who want to read you, myself included!
TR’s are hard for most all climbers. They aren’t trained to write and they feel that recollecting their climb is insignificant anyway---maybe even vain--- even though to us here the tale of their climb is WHY we are here. And it’s not easy to get pictures either, especially on very serious climbs. But it actually is great to see ANY TRs. I for one read them all since I have so much time these days.
But there is a real problem in climbing writing. Mountaineering literature generally has been called “a particularly dreadful form of travel writing” and I have to agree that most of it is and that it is an "acquired taste". There usually is only one form of emotional content, that of fear, and all the other functions of the human mind are thrown out in the writing. When you are done reading some piece, you still have NO clue why the hell the climb took place, what might have been discovered on the way up, and what really actually and truthfully happened to the crew while so engaged. And the nitty gritty details of the route of course vanish instantly from mind so to have loaded the tale up with so much minutiae is off-topic, frankly. It is possible to transmit sufficient beta to the reader regarding the climb without turning the tale into a discursive route description.
Instead the treatment tends towards itinerary description embellished with a few tangential nods to the fact the party might be human. The best of the Brits have handled this challenge by historically using the best of their pub humor and phenomenal wit; in fact to such an intimidating level of excellence that dead-center silence is the starting point for anyone else! They’re so splendid, the English, in this way. In the past, they too have skirted their real issues but by such great fun they create in the pages.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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I would imagine that for many posting a TR can be intimidating on ST. Much like walking up to the big boys table in the Caf and relating your onsite of Jam Crack. I enjoy reading the TR's as they bring back some great times BITD or projects to file away for the future.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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You know, I posted a frickin' ton of trip reports in the last two years - know what sticks in my brain the most?
Blitzo saying:
"Oh no! Not another MisterE and Justthemaid trip report!"
and a general lack of reponses beyond the obligatory 5 - 10 posts.
It's a bit discouraging when political posts get 11,000 responses.
I basically gave up - plus, it's easy cuz I'm not sending the killer FA's I have been for the last two years.
Now that I am in the city, I get it a bit more.
It's kind of fukking irritating people are sending cool new shiit when I'm locked down.
Gimme the easy diversion, Baby...
NOT!
Keep it coming, Kingsburys, etc!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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It's a bit discouraging when political posts get 11,000 responses.
Uh, that only happens when crybabies start protesting political threads and they are FORCED by the SYSTEM to put all their junk in one area.
Be careful what you ask for...
I agree about TR's though, but talking about Slideshows and old BITD sh#t...it get's boring pretty fasy. But that's just me.
At least some OT discussion is pretty good American discourse in the spirit of free expression.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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Broad generalizations.
Good writing is good writing subject notwithstanding.
That said, I tend to agree that TRs often don't get huge responses, but why not look at them as an inexpensive means of self-publishing for posterity.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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I would agree that the King's always put up quality though....
Same with you, Eric, always pretty good stuff, why let Blitzo discourage you. He's prolly jealous anyway....
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Close, Jeff - the new one is at Echo. Called "Bunnymen". heh.
Good call though - there is one in the works!
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hooblie
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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peter writes the single most constructive paragraph in the whole archive...
But there is a real problem in climbing writing. Mountaineering literature generally has been called “a particularly dreadful form of travel writing” and I have to agree that most of it is and that it is an "acquired taste". There usually is only one form of emotional content, that of fear, and all the other functions of the human mind are thrown out in the writing. When you are done reading some piece, you still have NO clue why the hell the climb took place, what might have been discovered on the way up, and what really actually and truthfully happened to the crew while so engaged. And the nitty gritty details of the route of course vanish instantly from mind so to have loaded the tale up with so much minutiae is off-topic, frankly. It is possible to transmit sufficient beta to the reader regarding the climb without turning the tale into a discursive route description
contemplating, or post processing what has happened to us on our "TRIP" is pretty close to what it's all about.
practitioners of this form travel furthest out on the ice.
personally, i feel that the words that were shared verbally, some of them extemporaniously, at memorials lately
were probably some of the richest material we have generated. i regret that we don't have them here.
the allowances provided by those in attendance for variations in style and content
foster some risk taking that we might consider offering here. mostly we do,
and that leaves room for some pretty rough drafts.
for all the climbing that donini gets in, he comes here looking for more.
pretty unquenchable, that guy. peter points to what i thirst for.
one can assume that the folks are doing the best that they know how.
sometimes it just ain't so. then again it might be us
edit: reasonable fodder for ponder, wrong as a conclusion. this place is accomodates the heartfelt just fine.
the indictment of sprayers in the broader culture may dissuade the clumsy, the hardperson's oath probably stifles others.
my post should be rewritten as a solicitation,
if i felt like calling into the wind
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
Oct 13, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
You know, I posted a frickin' ton of trip reports in the last two years - know what sticks in my brain the most?
Blitzo saying:
"Oh no! Not another MisterE and Justthemaid trip report!"
You got shut down by a Blitzo critique?!?!?
That is some exceedingly weak sauce. You need to attract some higher power leg humpers.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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It’s one up man's ship . So?
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MH2
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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I most likely have this wrong and if so then Oplopanax would know better, but it looks a little like what happened on cascadeclimbers.com when they started a separate Spray Forum, then you got the Pirates' Forum, then so many different forums.
All technologies contain the seeds of their own destruction. I wish Supertopo had stuck with simple text and images and kept everyone focused on a single Forum for all discussion and trip reports.
That said, I have several climbing contributions in the pipeline and generate new ideas robustly, which shows what a great pipeline I have, but I have to wait and watch to gauge which company they belong in.
History of Yosemite stereo photography: have a look in the Yosemite Lodge bathroom! Includes photo of the Sentinel Pine in it's last year.
Mystery crack at Squamish: why is my name associated with this route and which route is it, anyway?
Guys from Sacramento go up to climb the Grand Wall this summer. They get lost on Cruel Shoes and swing over to the base of Merci Me where another party has just arrived for the Grand Wall lite. The Sacramentans(?) are assured that the other party will "climb like the wind." But do they?
Damn the Torpedos. Damn Damn the Torpedos. A hard target.
etc.
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