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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Maybe you guys know of some local produce that grows without water?
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apogee
climber
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"Should we just grow enough for Cal?"
Ever read 'Cadillac Desert' or 'West of the Hundredth Meridian'? John Wesley Powell was remarkably prescient, and foretold the water conflicts we are experiencing right now. When the West was being explored and mapped, and state lines were being drawn, it was his recommendation that they be drawn according to watersheds, as this would allow these states to be more independently and logically self-supporting. His recommendations were tossed aside, largely by the political interests and agendas of the day.
Powell is a true American Hero, in my book.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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This thread needed some pictures. Sorry for some re-posts...
You Delta smelt haters really want to destroy the largest freshwater estuary on the west coast?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Much of the history of the settlement and development of the U.S. west is a history of unsustainable resource use - water, fish, forests, mines, oil, etc. The nadir and apotheosis of the frontier mentality, which is still far from ended. Water use, misuse and overuse is just one example of the reductio ad absurdum that has taken place.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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You Delta smelt haters really want to destroy the largest freshwater estuary on the west coast?
Atch, pay attention, there is a plan to save the smelt and pump water. I too am an avid Delta striper fisherman and realize the impact that no smelt would have on many factors of the Delta including being tasty-treats for striped bass.
I'll find some pics...
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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No, I'm not assuming "saving the smelt" (I keep saying saving the delta, but you say smelt to try to make it sound a bit more silly, a bit immature, but whatever) means ruining farming. I'm saying we should intelligently allocate resources. To you, intelligent allocation seems to mean 100% farming 0% environment. To me, a couple thousand acres of cotton isn't worth the permanent destruction of an ecosystem.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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To you, intelligent allocation seems to mean 100% farming 0% environment.
Bullsh#t, I never said that, or even implied it!!!
Also, how are we destroying the Delta???
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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A Neutral observer glancing through this thread would conclude as follows:
1. Everyone is an idiot;
2. Everyone is a hypocrite; and
3. There are easy solutions for everything relating to California water -- all Californians need to leave the state.
John
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I used to net fish for smelt in English Bay, about a km from home. Salt water fish we called smelt, anyway - they might have been oolichans. Same general idea, anyway - an intertidal beastie. Little silvery things.
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apogee
climber
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"3. There are easy solutions for everything relating to California water -- all Californians need to leave the state."
Sounds like a plan to me. Except Cali natives (born, raised, lived > half their lives here) can stay. Everybody else has to move to Carson City with Ron.
The water rights issue has been completely fecked in the West since the white man arrived and brought his politicians with him. It seems pretty hopeless sometimes, and destined to gain the war-potential of oil.
This issue, like all political issues these days, gets polarized into two camps by the respective sides, each accusing each of other of only seeking extreme solutions (plus a little namecalling- smelt hugger). The posts in this thread illustrate this well- one side says the other wants farming to end; the other says that farming interests think they should have sole rights to the water. And the vitriole goes on and on, with no reasonable solutions ever reached. It really sucks.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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I thought so Ron Anderson, you smelt like a Nevadan.
These fish are hugely important. Big fish eat smaller fish. DUH. That idiot Hannity and his shock jock mentality, riling up the population, instead of fact finding journalism with real solutions. Another Fox Fear Monger.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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JElezarian, it would be nice to hear your serious thoughts on this matter.
And nobody is seriously wanting to see a species eliminated. It's fine in joking, but it is an important part of the Delta system. It is being handled though. I'm just waiting for the enviro-nazis to come up with some ill effect of screening the little bastards from getting sucked into the pumps.
It'll probably be something along the lines of the Smelt 'feeling' badly for hitting the screen and then swimming away...
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apogee
climber
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"It'll probably be something along the lines of the Smelt 'feeling' badly for hitting the screen and then swimming away..."
Comments like that polarize and detract from solutions (as does 'smelt hugger' 'Christian a$$holes', etc.). You seem to aspire to being rational in approaching issues, blue...can you actually do it?
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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This whole issue isn't just a matter of fish getting sucked into the pumps. You can't put screens on the pumps and then just pump away.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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John Stewart is awesome. It's good to laugh at the coroporate whores and the fools who buy into their BS.
The "enviro-nazis" care more about smelt than people! LOL.
I've said this over and over on the Taco but I guess many people are too stupid or brainwashed to get it. The Endangered Species Act is not about protecting single species of animals. These species are inidicators species that indicate the health of eco-systems like a canary in a cole mine. It's much cheaper and easier determine if a species can live in an enviroment than to do expensive and complex chemical tests. If the smelt die it means the delta is f*#ked.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Can we leave Hannity out of this? I don't even know what you're referencing that he said.
So it's all about Agri-Business then? We only want to support family farms? What happens when a family farm is run so well that it expands and becomes more successful?
You make it sound like evil-oil!!!! They just piss away water because they can.
They use water and produce food for the country and some of the world, Johnson. Is that bad?
What's bad is the roadblocks thrown into play by unions and lobbyists that have personal financial interests. Sure the AB (AgriBusiness) has an interest. Provide a needed commodity for a profit. Is that so wrong?
Or do we just want 'communal' farms, pinko?
Franky;
This whole issue isn't just a matter of fish getting sucked into the pumps. You can't put screens on the pumps and then just pump away.
I think we can. This state has some pretty smart people who can figure out how to keep a 2 inch fish out of the pumps AND alive.
I could, I know there are smarter people than me out there.
FET, yeah, no sh#t, Sherlock. Have you read the whole thread?
Apogee, I'm just telling you the next step of the enviro-crazies....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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nice right-wingers for socialism thread.
we could do something truly radical:
price california and federal water by market standards.
of course, that would destroy agribusiness in the state.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Wes, why don't you enlighten me with your profound wisdom. In your own words.
Try to make it brief and to the (your) point...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The question isn't: Who is more important the farmers or the smelt?
It's: What is more important having enough water flow through the delta so the ecosystem doesn't collapse or should we continue to pump tons of water out for growing rice and alfalfa and having golf courses and lawns in a desert.
The problem is the water isn't allocated correctly. Water needs to be taken away from rice, alfalfa, lawns, and golf courses, and given to less water intensive crops and enought maintain healthy rivers. But it's much easier to blame "enviro-nazis".
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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The problem is the water isn't allocated correctly. Water needs to be taken away from rice, alfalfa, lawns, and golf courses, and given to less water intensive crops and enought maintain healthy rivers. But it's much easier to blame "enviro-nazis".
Fet, don't you think it's possible, with the right minds and the proper will, to do it all?
I do. I know we can, we just have no will and too many bullshit obstacles.
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