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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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I use the metolius aiders, cause I hate wasting time fidgeting with getting my foot in the loop in the wind,(It's always windy up there). But I really prefer the Yates Adj. daisy's. Both take a little practice so you don't waste energy lengthening either one and they both wear out relatively quick, but compared to the ol' shcool' aiders and daisy chains, Furgetabout it.
And the Pass from Metolius is brilliant. The fact that more climbers aren't using them( free climbing) is a confounded mystery.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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hahaha! a kook huh? naw..... It could have happened.
1. The biner dogbone should be as short as you can get it, your are about 1-1.5" longer than Yates. There is no need to make the pocket any bigger than what is needed to rotate a locking biner though the hole. Yates also "rolls" the webbing at the biner point, which makes no difference in my experience, but looks more "professional". Yates even went from 4 tacks to 3 tacks sometime in the last few years and shortened theirs another fraction of an inch.
I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am.
2. Climb spec is easier to pull through, and lasts a little longer in my experience (using one Yates and one Fish side by side). However the climb spec stuff gets sucked into the buckle and FUBAR'd easier and more often than the thick flat, which is maddening. Overall thick flat is my preferred option.
That is what happened to me too.... for the last few years we have only used the flat style of webbing (unless we were out or some other odd reason). Both styles seem to do quite well, but the tube webbing can get hooked on the spring and really become a mess.
3. Your daisies are a proper length, even recent Yates ones are a bit short (and I'm only 5'9").
I like them long too... same with our Super Daisy. Real long.
4. At least the girth hitch I got on my pair was massive and overkill. A girth hitch barely big enough to pass the buckle through is key in my opinion (about 3"). With the small dogbone and a small girthing loop it is pretty easy to go without a fifi. Stock Fish girth loops force the use of a fifi for second and top stepping for me on anything steep. I hate fifi's and keeping them out of my system is my favorite thing about using adjustable daisies.
We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best.
5. Many folks are less color blind/indifferent than you are. I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster. You could get a special niche by being more aware of this, and selling contrasting pairs, and not just whatever is at your finger tips when the order comes in. When I ordered mine I tried to be clear about getting one red, one blue plus a set of replacement webbing. I got two red ones (climb spec), and got two replacement straps that were blue (thick flat). Close, but no cigar. I cut one red strap off and put on one of the blue straps. Stoners lost my blue one and replaced it with a Yates which is how I have side by side comparisons. Those buckles finally wore out (after probably 4-5 more webbing replacements), and I replaced them both with Yates from the Mountain Shop so I could be sure to get contrasting colors (though they did not have red, bummer).
Sadly, webbing colors come and go. When I order webbing it is by the pallet, and only do so a few times a year. So when the Blue is gone, it is gone.... sometimes for a while, as in months.
As a for instance: I have blue right now in flat and tube.... but red only in tube.... So a nice blue one could be made (we use tubular for the buckle end and flat for the body) but the red one would have to be some jacked up Miami Vice teal and red or something...
Email me your address and I'll send you stuff to "test" for all that great info above.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:17pm PT
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Per the Master Fish " I am red/blue obsessed to help tame the cluster". This little detail is imperative for reducing the cluster F*&%^. Red is Right ....is always the same no matter how much your spinning around up their.....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I'm in agreement to. I think having Red is Right, blue Left, is the way. Cuts thru the confusion, and makes me feel happy.
Same reason i have redjumar and blue jumar and red speed stirrup and blue speed stirrup.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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I used to like Metolius because I was stupid.
See, the Metolius uses a D-ring rig which is impossible to loosen under tension, and is also incredibly difficult to use on traversing pitches. But the D-ring doesn't slip, even when you've used the daisy for way longer than you ever should, and it gets old and ratty and abraded and weak, but still doesn't slip. And because you're a cheap self-unemployed bastard, you don't replace it, then you take a short fall on the thing and it breaks, and because you're stupid and blow it, you fall, hit a ledge and break your leg.
Metolius has since made their adjustable daisies even weaker, and sells them with the caveat to back them up using a proper full strength traditional daisy, which is probably a good idea if your adjustable daisy is only marginally stronger than a strand of wet spaghetti.
Or you could buy a proper adjustable daisy from Fish or Yates, both of which are virtually identical, made with much beefier and stronger nylon, and have a burly Ancra buckle that you can release one-handed under load. [If you cannot release it one-handed or under load, then you are a pussy] John's adjustables used to be too short, but he has since remedied that design flaw.
John Yates tells me you can in theory get 70 pitches out of a pair of his daisies before they begin to slip and get weak, and you should retire them. [I was stupid, and didn't do this with my Metolius, and should have retired them long ago. Nylon fails when it gets old and ratty - I was just luckier than Todd Skinner]
In practice, I get two El Cap walls out of my Yates before I replace them. This is because I do a lot of big wall camping, and crawl around on my bivi belays a lot.
And here is your Dr. Piton Big Wall Tip of the Day:
Get yourself a Third Arm. Put a third adjustable daisy on your harness, and use it when you are leading hard aid and get scared [you will understand what I mean when you get into the situation, and are glad you have a Third Arm]. It's also extra redundancy for crawling around on belays if you are not tied into the end of a rope, which I sometimes do. You don't want to blow it and do a Factor 2 onto a single adjustable daisy, know what ah mean, Vern?
So don't do as I do, do as I say: retire your adjustable daisies frequently!
P.S. "Red is right" is essential in certain systems, like Russian Aiders where you can't tell which stirrup goes on which leg, cuz they look almost the same. Adjustable daisies go left to right constantly, and colour here is irrelevant [except that they be two different colours]
P.P.S. Russ - you've got my ledge for revamping, right? If you want an answer to your question above, please include one of each daisy, and I'll give 'em a go in September and let you know, eh?
P.P.S. Here is Russ' chief [only] design flaw, and for this reason I only use Fish for my third arm, I have to use Yates for my primary pair:
"I put like 7 or 8 tacks in there, figuring it takes a lot of wear and tear from twisting and handling. I suppose it could be made shorter with less tacks, but I sorta like having a buttload of tacks to look at to convince myself I'm safer than I actually am."
No good, Russ. You gotta shorten up the stitching, man! I refuse to climb El Cap, and will only pull myself up using adjustable daisies with a 2:1 mechanical advantage less the friction through the buckle. But I can't pull myself all the way up with your adjustable daisies because there's too much bloody stitching on the mobius-girth hitch loop thingy.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 11, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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"We are doing an 8" loop these days, down from 10" a while back. We lob like 8 tacks into the girthing bond. Are you girthing it to your belay loop or around your leg loops and harness at the waist? With my caveman set up (Swami and leg loops) the sizing was just right.... that and I use a close-clip biner on my waist.
"This would be a good one to hear about.. like how you modern harness guys set it up and what length girth loop you might think is best. "
I girth mine around my waist/leg loops, same place I tie into the rope at, it's all about getting things short enough to avoid the fifi. I'm about the last person you want to ask about "modern setups", I'm just a fatso who gets out onto real rock about twice a year.
No need to send me stuff, I have too much already. I've got a Fish econobag, aid trees, wall bags, beef bags, two hooks (dropped my third, favorite 2.5" one), a couple Fish ledges, gear sling (needs less slipper padding covering), etc. Worse yet, I have a sewing machine (well, 3 actually), so I have a load of crap I've tried sewing that I'll probably never wear out at the rate I "climb".
Also, you gotta get some of those shirts like the Wall Psyche one reprinted... My two Fish shirts are getting a bit worse for wear, and the "Naked" one has worn out its welcome at my work...
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 12, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Yates the one with the metal ring on the pull end? I run that one and a fish side by side, girthed to my belay loops. For me both also require a fifi when in the 2nd step, but it is an easy fifi as my waist is right there. Both have self released in my clusterf*#kness system giving me a 2” heart attack. I can’t remember what caused it, but it is either a biner, or maybe the other daisy being weighted directly about the buckle, pressing it down and paying out some slack. Thump, thump, thump, thump, goes the heart… I am thinking about checking out Kate’s ushba system.
The Yates gets really fuzzy, the fish not so much so. No slippage from either yet.
Prod.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Aug 12, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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I third the comments about lengths of Fish loops.
Top buckle hangs 2" lower than Yates, and girth loop rises about 3" higher. 5" less reach, or an extra move to fifi higher, repeat umpteen times- not good.
Also the top of the end loops catch on stuff- PITA.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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What about the aluminum ring on the Yates vs. the sown loop on the Fish?
I've only used the Yates so I can't compare, but I like the ring.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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I personally haven't found the ring to be an advantage. Russ's have tripled webbing that is plenty easy to grab onto firmly. Also, the only time you grab the end is when things are fully extended, such as first step up onto a new piece, or at belay stations when you're down digging in the bags. The rest of the time you're yarding on just the strap, and the ring is out of the picture.
Some years back Karl Baba described his system which involved hanging an aider off the ring to truly winch himself up using his feet. I don't see the appeal, but it would be easier to do that trick with the Yates than the Fish.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 12, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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It's been a while since I've aided anything, but I seem to recall not liking the ring as it would get caught in cracks and on gear.
Prod.
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 13, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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For those of you who missed it, Russ put one of his up on eBay, and I just snaked it!
Russ--I'll gladly provide you with some feedback once I've had a chance to use it a bit.
As an aside, I just got a new pair of Yates last week, and the dogbone has 4 bartacks, not 3, so if they were doing 3 for a while, they must have reverted back.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 13, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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PhotogEC et al:
I just did a super shorty test rig and have sent a sample of this new style along with one of our regular ones to PhotoEC.... he'll try them out. Since I did not want to kill him, I set up a test to see if the method was sound.
Here is the test daisy set up to be pulled.
Note that the cam is NOT engaged, since I really wanted to see how the blue webbing would handle the load. The way the daisy is normally set up, the cam will most likely cut the webbing around 2000lbs.
I stopped the test at 2600lbs and here was the damage to the end I was interested in: Not too bad really.... just slight cutting.
His test daisy has about 1.5" of clip in at the business end, really just enough for a biner. The girthing section is a 5" (or less?) loop, really just big enough to get the buckle through. Hopefully he'll let us know what he thinks.
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PhotogEC
climber
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Russ, assuming that you are successful in your attempt to not kill me with your wares, I will indeed report back. Looking forward to getting them!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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@John Mac- Wow, that was fast... The daisies showed up today! Thx! BTW, which is which? Not being a wall climber I've never looked at these sorts of things and don't know the difference. Oh, and thx for the lifetime supply of MP stickers! :-)
@everyone else- Thanks to John Mac we've got a Fish and a Yates to break... How do you all want it done? I can slow pull hydraulically or drop a bunch of steel onto them, so whatever you all decide would be best is fine by me. I'll probably won't have time to do it until Tuesday, so feel free to ponder/discuss for a couple days.
-aric.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Hey Aric, post up a pic of the FISH so I can tell you what vintage it is.... as to webbing specs and style.
I vote for violent drop test, since that is what the failure mode usually is...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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Hmmm... Probably safe to assume the one with the tag that says "YATES" isn't from FISH, huh? It was curled up under the end of the bartack and I didn't see it earlier.
Here's some pics. Looks like they use the same buckle and I suspect the ring on the YATES one is a SMC Rap Ring. The YATES uses all flat web and the FISH uses flat for the adjustable part and climb-spec tube for the small loop. You can't see it in the pics, but the FISH has an extra layer of web on the buckle (think BD C4 sling) and the Yates does not. Also the small loop on the FISH is flat while the YATES has the sides folded inwards and stitched together at the top, giving it a narrower profile.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Cool... those look like fairly recent models and would be similar to identical to the stuff I would produce today. Tubular web for the clip and regular (not the super thick stuff) 1" flat for the main webbing. The replacement web should be more or less the same 1" webbing also.
Edit: one thing to note: Rub your finger on the teeth inside the cam.... even though the buckles may look the same or real close, Ancra has at least two styles of "teeth". I've used both styles, one being fairly smooth teeth, and the other being quite sharp or aggressive.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 14, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Now that you mention it, the teeth _are_ different! On the YATES the teeth stay perpendicular to the curve of the lever and are ~8tpi. On the FISH they get somewhat off-perpendicular when it gets to the end of the curve and are ~9tpi. I don't have an easy way to measure tooth depth at the moment, but will rig something up later. If Ancra lists that sort of thing in their catalog the numbers stamped on the buckles are BM for the FISH (both on the frame and the cam) and CMG (frame) and PC (cam) for the YATES (I'm assuming those are part numbers, as they're the only things stamped on there).
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