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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 23, 2009 - 09:07am PT
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Patrick, since my husband died I try to get up @ 5 each morning and watch the new day unfold. New day, precious gift. During this time I talk to God and he to me. What proof, really do you have, that there is no God ?
There is a verse in the Psalms that says, "The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call on him in truth." Patrick, I am no kool-aide drinker. Especially when I had to make the decision to turn off my husband's respirator in the hospital and watch that intangible spirit of man depart the body. Believe you me, I did a 12 round toe to toe slug out with this God that said He loved me.
Go on your own honest, search....quest before you decide absolutely there is no God. I hope I haven't offended you. I just care and continue to pray for your brother and family. Peace, Lynne
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2009 - 10:11am PT
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Thank you all for your words and thoughts. I'll find out this evening (Irish time, we're eight hours ahead of California) how he is doing, he ain't out of the woods, but hopefully...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 23, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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God does exist. From a scientific standpoint their are to many magic numbers.
In no way could the big bang happened the way it did if someone was not adjusting binding energies, etc.
God does not play dice.
I pray all the time. I think without prayer I would really be lost.
I pray to Jesus and Lord Buddha.
Juan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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hey there patrick... say, i am very sad to hear this... and sadder yet, that i did not jump in here sooner, to try offer help, as others had...
i had thought if was some kind of debate, and i always let myself feel peace before i jump in, so i dont mess up, when a share...
well, now... first off...
1--i will be praying for him, i really will... as, one never has regrets, when one has tried to help...
2--as to you and how you feel about prayer:
god is great and wonderful, that you can, in humble truth, as to who you are, just say:
god, i do not believe in you, and i dont pray, but, my brother needs help, and i dont know what to do--this is the best prayer i can offer now, so please, take my desire to help him, and do something... amen...
(hey, if he's not there, at least you got "it, the request" out of your system) (then, to folks like me, or lynne, who has found him to be real, why we already know that he will be doing something, as you were HONEST in the way you "set your feelings" out, for help)
3--the odd thing about prayer, is folks will say it dont work, based on what they "see", or based on the fact that "someone" did not get well and live:
the thing is:
we are spirit beings, not just body--our spirit is the "treasure" and it is what will one day pass out of our body... what better way, for a prayer to be answered, then, as to "eternal" things that are by-far a much higher danger, if gone wrong, at this level (we want the best, for whatever comes after this life is over)(just like a mom wants the best for her new-born babe, to have, once it is in "its new world" so to speak) (thus, she must do all she can, for its "birth" step)... so in prayer, the major aspect is for the "birth" into where one goes, after death... (NOT meaning you should wish your brother to die---just meaning, that if you dont' see the help here, it does not mean that prayers did not do their duty) (there was a need somewhere, that was not seen here, by your eyes)...
4--i have always, gotten a witness, later, that there was a reason why my prayers were answered, in the way they were... in the majority of times, and i am talkling about 95% here, i have seen them answered the way, i had hoped for (good stuff, too!)---BUT: that is because, i had prayed, first, for myself, as to me having the proper feelings, as to know what or how to pray for something, and when i did not, i prayed "spiritualy" and let god, do the rest....
5--the other 5 percent, i just took a dare to pray on the spur, and had no clue as to what the results could, or should, be, so then, i had no regrets there, either... i just had no expectations, to be having a feeling that i was let down... so that, i still believe, there were heard---but it was GODS business, and NOT mine, as to how the situtation turned out, being that:
only god knows another persons inner man, and make up, and only HE knows the way prayer can or should, work upon another man's heart, live and personal, soul... not, me, or anyone:
no wonder so many folks get "mad" at god, they persume, to know better, as to the other person, involved...
or, we presume to know better, as to our own selfish "wants" and not as to "proper needs" for eternity... (being that we are all heading-out, some day)...
*not saying that you or family, are selfish, etc, that was for the general princables, here... (including, me, too)
*well, much love to you, patrick and to your brother, i sure hope i am not too late, to help everyone pray, but i am joining in now...
*oh, must clarify, too, not all these prayers were for healing of others, many were for all kinds of other hardships, in folks lives, and they got resolved, and depending on the heart of the persons involed, some were resolved in many fantastic ways, others in slow, but solid ways... and the list goes on...(healings, as well as peace, when it was time to die)...
sure hope that this is a time of healing for your beloved brothers, god bless, once again..
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 23, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Around the campfire we all continue to keep good thoughts and to pray....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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HEHE, Jaybro, I said that. You can look it up! (Snicker)
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:54am PT
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Some really kind and beautiful words on this thread.
Patrick, sending out thoughts of healing ... prayers and... Hope.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 24, 2009 - 03:43am PT
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Nita, just got up to check and see if Patrick signed in yet .....yeah, you're spot on Gal, Hope. What a simple, beautiful, power packed word. lrl
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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hey there lynne and nita... say, i just checked in to see how patrick and his brother are doing too....
i woke up and was just praying for last few hours, and not sure why.... it can be for those that are getting well, or it can be for those that "are left behind" and feeling sad....
or it can just be for all the other folks i have been praying for, and even for my own kids! the list is long... ;)
sometimes, one does not know which it is--- i sure hope all is well, i was just worried....
hope all is well, dear patrick... and dear family of his...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 24, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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neebee, I been praying too. I know God has heard. Just don't know anything else. Peace, Lynne
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annaleis
Trad climber
Big Bear Lake, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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Patrick,
How's your family doing?
Philosophy aside, trauma can make people say and do things out of grief. Sounds like your sister was holding on to prayer as a lifeboat. She responded in anger because it seemed (to her) like you were refusing that refuge.
Having been in similar situations many times, I still can't empathize with how you are feeling right now. I have seen many miracles. Not all of them turn out the way we expect.
My hope is that you find hope and strength as a family in this difficult time.
For what it's worth, I will *discuss* this matter with Jesus for you. He knew what it was like to lose a loved one (John 11), and he is more than able to comfort you and your family.
Peace to you,
~On a lease
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Apr 24, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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I've only been through one hard death when my grandmother went. She was very spiritual and a frequent bible reader, through not a church attendee. I am very non-religous, don't pray, and feel wrong when I'm coerced into going through the motions.
My advise to to concentrate on the wishes of the ill. Be sincere when you can, and suck it up and act when that is what the sick need. Tell them what they need to hear, and make sure you won't kick yourself for being selfish later.
In my grandmother's case she reached the point of being angry with her god by the last few days, yelling at him for doing this to her, and I think that if I were religous I would have had a problem with that. I was having enough trouble dealing with sleep deprivation due to a flaky sister who bailed when things went south, and other family memeber who took a while to fly in to help. In my grandmother's case having family around to talk to, and distract her from her pain was more important than prayer, or hollow assurances of the nirvana that she was headed for.
Looking back what helped my grandmother the most in her last few weeks was feeling like she had family support dealing with confusing hospital jargon, and having someone around to get her sips of water, getting her meds on time, etc. The prayers my brother did made less of a difference in her comfort on her last day then making sure I got her a straw of water every 20-30 minutes to keep her mouth moist while she suffered.
My final doubts against assisted end of life euthanasia were erased by her experiences, it was needless pain at the end. I'm glad I now live in a state where docs are allowed to help, as both I and my father (her son) came damn close to offering her the whole bottle of morphine during her final nights. If I had to do over again I would have, to hell with the consequences.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 24, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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"I guess that the best I can do is send my brother good vibes and hope that the powers that be, whomever or whatever they may be, look kindly on my bro', who is five years older than I am and introduced me to climbing."
If God has a plan that includes when we die, it sort of upsets the idea that we have freewill. I believe in freewill. Do what will give your bro the best chance of survival even if that means telling him that God has left it up to him if he lives or dies. Maybe he will fight harder knowing that it will make a difference. Don't go anywhere near that "God has a plan..." crap because that just tells people to stop fighting and wait for some outside help. Waiting for outside help is not the way of a warrior.
But if you feel that your brother will be helped by knowing that you are praying for him, do that even if you don't believe in God. What you believe doesn't matter in this case since it is not you fighting for your life.
God would want him to fight for his life because life is important in some way or another and not something to be given up easily.
Best wishes,
Dave
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2009 - 06:10am PT
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Jeez, some great words here in this thread. Some happy, some not so, but that is life. All of them posted with good intentions and kind thoughts. I spoke with my brother on Thursday night, he didn't sound great. He thought he would be discharged by Sunday (no way), then I spoke with him last night and he said Monday. Hmmmm...
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 25, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Where is he, Patrick? Not that it matters, I guess, but I will be doing my regular mtn bike ride past john Muir/Walnut Creek soon and will no doubt think of him.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 25, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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hey there patrick...wow, say, sure would be wonderful for him to get to go home! ... i know we keep repeating this, but we are all still praying for him to get well ... :)
say, here's an idea... do you now some subjects that he really loves?---perhaps you could tape record yourself, talking about or reading some neat bits of fun info, for him.... so as he is naturally feeling trapped while trying to get better, he would have something making his inner-man feel strong and happy...
not sure what kind of stuff, but you would know....
stuff like, feelings that come to mind from the ocean, the woods, the mountains... or whatever... and just kind of do it in a narrative story type way....
well, take care, ... :)
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AllieKat
Social climber
Kirkland, WA
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Apr 25, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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My thoughts are with you.....
AllieKat
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Hey Jaybro he is is at Napa Kaiser but is being transferred to a nursing home tomorrow for six weeks so he can have IV antibiotics three times a day to address the Necrotizing Fasciitis - commonly known as flesh-eating disease or flesh-eating bacteria (from Wikipedia). They have operated on his ankle twice and, unfortunately, it has entered into the bone.
He was admitted on April 11 and apparently almost died on the 12 (Easter Sunday). It is a very serious condition, but it sounds like they will not have to amputate, though they did do some debridement of the infected tissue.
From Wikipedia (his is staph)
Cellulitis (the initial diagnosis for Mac)
In rare cases, the infection can spread to the deep layer of tissue called the fascial lining. Necrotizing fasciitis, also called by the media "flesh-eating bacteria," is an example of a deep-layer infection. It represents an extreme medical emergency.
“Flesh-eating bacteria” is a misnomer as the bacteria do not actually eat the tissue. They cause the destruction of skin and muscle by releasing toxins (virulence factors), which include streptococcal pyogenic exotoxins. S. pyogenes produces an exotoxin known as a superantigen. This toxin is capable of activating T-cells non-specifically, which causes the overproduction of cytokines.
Necrotizing fasciitis (NF), commonly known as flesh-eating disease or flesh-eating bacteria, is a rare infection of the deeper layers of skin and subcutaneous tissues, easily spreading across the fascial plane within the subcutaneous tissue. Type I describes a polymicrobial infection, whereas Type II describes a monomicrobial infection. Many types of bacteria can cause necrotizing fasciitis (eg. Group A streptococcus (Streptococcus pyogenes), Staphylococcus aureus, Vibrio vulnificus, Clostridium perfringens, Bacteroides fragilis).
Historically, Group A streptococcus made up most cases of Type II infections. However, since at least 2001, another serious form of monomicrobial necrotizing fasciitis has been observed with increasing frequency.[1] In these cases, the bacterium causing it is methicillin resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), a strain of S. aureus which is resistant to methicillin, the antibiotic used in the laboratory that determines the bacterium's sensitivity to flucloxacillin or nafcillin that would be used for treatment clinically.
In necrotizing fasciitis, aggressive surgical debridement (removal of infected tissue) is always necessary to keep it from spreading and is the only treatment available.
As in other maladies characterized by massive wounds or tissue destruction, hyperbaric oxygen treatment can be a valuable adjunctive therapy, but is not widely available. A recent study demonstrated excellent clinical outcomes from the use of topical negative pressure, a technology which is portable and readily available. Amputation of the affected organ(s) may be necessary. Repeat explorations usually need to be done to remove additional necrotic tissue. Typically, this leaves a large open wound which often requires skin grafting. The associated systemic inflammatory response is usually profound, and most patients will require monitoring in an intensive care unit. (My brother was in ICU for five days).
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Best wishes to your brother. Sounds really nasty.
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