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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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I do not believe in a god, but one of my brothers is gravely ill in hospital in Napa. My other half told my sister-in-law that we will pray for him, and then she gave me the phone, I told Kathleen (more a sister than sister-in-law) that I do not pray, and she said "you'd better say a prayer for your brother".
Now, with an emotional rollercoaster (my oldest brother was economical with the truth in an earlier phone call, no doubt trying to allay my anxiety over a 6,000 mile distance) going on in my head, I guess I have to rely on my good vibes to help him through this ordeal (which is life threatening, but not a 'done deal').
Now the Taco Stand is the only forum I really am attuned to, and there are some really savvy Supertopians, and I gain solace from the brother/sisterhood of the forum.
I guess that the best I can do is send my brother good vibes and hope that the powers that be, whomever or whatever they may be, look kindly on my bro', who is five years older than I am and introduced me to climbing.
Again, I know that this is not a climbing - or political - thread but I had to post it for my own sanity.
I will post a couple of Mallorcan climbing pix when I can figure out the techie details of it.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 22, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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I'll be praying for the best for him too. Whats his name?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 22, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Sorry to hear this Patrick.
In answer to your question, there may be other things you can do besides praying -- and besides sending good vibes. 6,000 miles separation adds some limits, but you've got a telephone (and email), and I can tell you from personal experience that support, even over the phone, can be a huge help. Sometimes money helps. Sometimes advice (as in you may know of a better doctor, or different treatment).
Sometimes though, all of this is just whistling in the dark, and all you can really do is fall into your lover's arms and ask her to hold you while you cry.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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Patrick,
Sorry to hear about your brother. I understand, the word "pray" sometimes makes me cringe. However you send the vibe out to him, and you surely do and will, well that's your version of what others call a prayer. Call it vibe, thoughts, karma, whatever...maybe it's a phone call or an e mail or a letter to him - just thinking about him puts the good energy out there. Cross your fingers and toes for good luck and keep in touch with them as much as you can - I'm sure your support will mean the world to your bro no matter how far away you are physically. Hang in there! : )
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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A prayer is many things. Like yourself, I don't believe in any conventional depiction of God. There is a lot we don't know. I think the whole god concept is an attempt to manage something beyond our abilities, more like infinity than a deity. It is my experience that there is energy to positive (and negative ) thoughts. Hard to gauge the efficacy, but I do believe in it, and have experienced it.
My free advice, worth what you pay for it, is pray for your brother, I think I, just did...
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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My family gives thanks whenever we sit down to a meal together. We don't address it to anyone/anything in particular, and say amen at the end.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Just say "Pax vobiscum".
Should keep everyone happy.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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I am saying this honestly from my heart. I talk to God alot. I talk to Him about my family, friends and many Tacoians. I never can quarentee what He will do when I ask for help, but I know He hears me and loves me. And not just me....each one of us.
I know He is real because of what has happened in my life. He saved my marriage twice so Dan and I were able to spend 39 years together. The last 15 being pretty incredible. And He has done so very much more.
I am not trying to convince anyone to be like me or believe like me. I'm just telling how it is in my little life here on the finite planet I'm moving through on.
Patrick, I will talk to my Father about your Brother...very seriously....and your whole family. Peace, Lynne
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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if you take the non-dualism path when you say a prayer you are saying a prayer to yourself, your brother, me, etc. The non-dualists view is that there is not anything manifested that isn't god. god isn't something other. The world is an infinite multiverse and it revolves around each of us.
so turn Tantric for a day or three and offer your Om Namah Shivaya to the greatness that is all of us - supreme consciousness.
Sorry to hear about your brother.
om shanti,
nature
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nutjob
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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Hey Patrick, I hear where you are coming from, and offer this perspective:
Even if you don't believe in god/God, it costs you nothing to pray for another. But it will give solace to your other family members who do believe in god/God, and that is worth something.
I'll make a wild stab in the dark and say that for you, not praying is a way to honor your beliefs and identity in this time when this aspect of your honor/identity is being challenged. I say that your honor and your identity are whatever you choose for them to be, and choosing to make an exception that will bring comfort to another will cost you nothing, as long as you have the inner strength to know the truth of this. If you are still wavering on that, and have fear/uncertainty about the integrity of your identity as a non-believer-of-God if you pray, well then it's probably best to not pile up resentment for doing something you don't want to do. For one-off instances though, I think it's fairly easy to set aside any feelings of resentment or self-betrayal in the name of a greater cause. That just seems like being responsible for your emotions as an adult.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Thank you all and I will consider the advice that I have received. Jennie is a lapsed Catholic (I am a totally lapsed Catholic) and is going to light a candle in the church in Dalkey this morning (it's 00:42 here ).
As for me, I will hope...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Apr 22, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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sending you and your family some love, patrick...
-tom
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ontos
Boulder climber
Washington DC
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Apr 22, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Patrick,
I'm terribly sorry to hear of your brother's trouble. I'm very close to my brother and I can't imagine what it would be like to have one's brother unwell. I wish you and he the best.
On the topic of what is to be done in the absence of god. I'm, like you I take, not a theist and one of the most challenging things about taking that position is confronting the impotence of humans in certain circumstances, but there are things you can do even if you can't change the fundamental circumstances. Be a good brother, advocate for his care and his dignity. Follow Zeno's example, accept that we can't change everything, but help where you can. In short, be kind; do what you can to lift the spirits of those effected. Share a conversation, a laugh, a drink. Be well and be brave; look after yourself but offer what strength you have to others. As Kurt Vonnegut's son Mark said when asked about why we are here: “Father, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.”
Indeed Mark is right; let me know if there is anything I can do.
Best,
another Patrick
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OfBlinkingThings
Boulder climber
Jackosnville, Fl
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Apr 22, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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Patrick-
I don't pray either. When situations like yours arise I just try to be strong and keep a cool head. In my humble opinion people pray because they feel out of control and need guidance. I try to gain a grasp on my emotions and thoughts by staying grounded in reality and accepting things as they come, not how they should be. You ask who one should turn to in distress when they have no god. The answer is yourself and those you love. Best of luck man, I hope things work out
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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There are three options. (1)You. (2)Your family. Or (3)your friends.
When those fail, I use shaman drumming tapes and try #1 again in an alternate reality.
Best wishes,
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Same thing you would use for everything else, of course.
Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Duct tape.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Paul McCartney is my Personal Jesus.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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TIG, you are one mean person. ;-)
Hmmm, duck tape you say, is that like duck soup?
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Are you sure you don't believe? You don't have to believe in what people or religions say about God to believe that there is something out there that sustains life as we know it, that there is a spirit of life, that there is a a conscious creative energy of life. There are many ways to believe.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
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Good luck, Patrick, in this difficult time.
I used to believe in God as a separate being and, through my meditations, came to question that construction. It's been a bit of a conundrum for me since, as I pretty much feel that everything IS *God.*
The hardest part is when I do feel helpless - who do I turn to? That old *God* seems turned off like a tv set since then, and I haven't developed much of an inter-relationship yet with this new all-inclusive concept. When I am down, or scared, for myself - I just feel sort of separate.
But even so, when it comes to others, I can really rally my own emotional energy and sort of "aim" it their way. I will imagine myself being emotionally available for them. Hugging, massage, supporting, talking, crying along with, whatever feels right. Just being "with them."
I think this is sort of like praying. As well, I have also(when it's me I'm worried about) talked to *the old god* even though I don't understand God as that concept anymore.
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