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jstan
climber
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Feb 12, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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I was the only person in my family if origin who did not choose to be a lifetime teacher. So anything I say is probably best ignored.
If there was any single factor persuading me to decide as I did it came when my mother was no longer allowed to discipline students IN CLASS. If you are solely focussed on the students learning, not being able to maintain order in the classroom has to be pure frustration. The preferred method of maintaining discipline through earning the respect of the students is breached as soon as visible disrespect is permitted.
The comment that education begins in the home is so central I am beginning to think public schools should hold organizing meetings with the parent body along with one on one personal contact sessions. If a parent is found to be a poor fit with the school that parent's child might well not be admitted to the school. We can see the reason why private schools seem to offer hope. In too many cases parents, I think, consider K-12 to be an extended daycare facility. I have even seen parental complaints in the papers supporting this belief. Here perhaps we have a clue to a solution.
When, according to some agreed upon metric, a student is deemed detrimental to the learning of their classmates, they are sent home for a period of time, perhaps even with the parent being summoned immediately to pick them up. If there is no correction the student might well be expelled and transferred to a more appropriate institution of learning. Such an approach might even permit the child of a dysfunctional parent to be returned to functionality. There are dysfunctional adults out there.
Teachers are people and people generally have impressive ability to game the system. Not employed in all cases surely, but present nonetheless. Many complaints about teachers's unions in large metropolitan areas often point to this as a factor. But here I think we need to accept another fact which this country's policies deny. We need to judge each case on its merits as NO TWO ARE EVER THE SAME.
The US worships the idea that education is exactly the same in every part of this vast country. Pure self delusion. (Which by the way has permitted large flows of tax money to Washington.) Within a single child, what the child hears in class can change with their mood or that day's experience.
My father left me no choice as to whether I was to skip 10th grade. I studied on my own with my mother's help and passed the exams, thereby getting a chance to take responsibility for my education unto myself. It was an eye-opening experience. Surely the education of each of us is, ultimately, our own responsibility. If our public schools routinely made this capability available my experience suggests just by watching their peers kids would soon sense how exciting it can be to be an adult.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Feb 12, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Low teacher pay does lead to poor competition, and poor competition leads to many low quality folks teaching.
My wife is in the last parts of her teaching program. At assorted social functions amongst her class mates I have been rather horrified by the general lack of talent and the very low end backgrounds of these soon to be teachers (lots of hairnets and name tags, if you know what I mean...). Some of this is due to the setting, a state school, but it is also very clear that anyone of significant talent can much more easily, and flexibly make more money in a host of other professions. As a result you either get the minority of folks who have a true calling and teach despite the pay, a subset who are mostly smart but failed to realize the economics of the profession, or the remaining sorry lot for whom teaching is really the best they can do.
As a result of paying too little, we hire the wrong folks. The low quality of output by these wrong folks draws the ire of tax payers, helping keep the pay low. My $0.02
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 12, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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Moof,
In one full swoop you have managed to offend all teachers, including your wife who is on her way to becoming one.
Good going.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 12, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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But Jstan
You have been a teacher for much of your life.
You teach by example. Clean climbing, keeping active,
making places better than they were before you arrived.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Uhhhmmm, sorry Klimmer...I'd say Moof makes a very valid point. It's no secret that education attracts, generally, the lower academically talented/motivated crowd with the exceptions of those who really want to be a teacher and also have the intelligence. My wife teaches at the college level and can spot educ. majors in her class a mile away. Generally, they perform lower than her other students enrolled in more challenging majors.
I can speak from experience that education courses are much easier than those of other solid majors (i.e. science, business, and even the standard humanities majors), IHMO of course.
Edit: Raise the teacher certif. standards and you'll raise the quality of teachers.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 12, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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I take exception to both Moof and Dick--I'm studying to become
an elementary school teacher and working full time.
I have a 3.87 average, and many of my peers are doing as well.
I certainly wouldn't say the cirriculum is any easier--and
in my general education classes there are as many loafers as there are in society--just as there are bad teachers, there are bad cops, bad doctors and bad accountants and bankers.
You can't paint everyone with the same brush.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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I respect your opinion Steve...but I never got solid A's until I started taking education courses. One could argue I was more motivated in these courses, but if anything, they took less effort to get an "A" than lets say trig/algebra or classical world literature courses I was taking concurrently.
Now, there's also one other consideration. I took my education courses from a junior college in Wyoming. Maybe Wyoming's standards are lower than other states due to lack of competition in the state. I'll get back to you after June when I take education courses here at Ind. Univ. I may have to eat my words :)
EDIT: BTW, (non-sequitor) what's up with doing student teaching for 4 mos. for free? That's still a thorn in my side. What other profession makes you work for free? Even internships are paid positions, or were before the economy went belly up.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Feb 12, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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AllezAllez - "Or is this an isolated case of....fill in the blank. Remember not all investment bankers are greedy crooked scumbags either.".......
Uhm....
yah they are!!!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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To be fair, Moof was talking about "perspective teacher's". I'd say the laws of natural selection weed out most of the people who shouldn't be teaching after the first year or two. So yes Tami, odds are you met the best of the best!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Feb 12, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Steve,
3.87 GPA's should not be the norm. Most of my wife's classmates, like you, have very high GPA's. My wife marvels at the lack of rigour, and lack of talent within the teaching staff for her program (often blatently not practicing what they teach...), There is definately grade inflation compared with what I went through to get my engineering degree, where a 3.5 GPA was only obtainable by being both damn smart AND busting your ass for 4 hard years, with 4.0's only going to those who were both gifted and sleep deprived. Very high 3.7-4.0 GPA's should be rare, and not just a way to pat the students on the head and make them think they are good people.
I don't intend to insult all teachers, but plenty are hacks. It only takes a couple really bad teachers to sour a student for years to come. I had my share of truly excellent teachers, as well as my share of horrible hacks, with a bunch in between.
As for student teaching being "free", it's actualy worse. I'm about to cut a $4.5k check JUST for student teaching credits. For the last semester my wife has ZERO university classes, but still has to pay for a full load of credits to student teach. WTF? Again, the program inflates the credits education majors get to make it look like a real reputable program. Yeah, real impressive. At the end of this glorified summer camp my wife gets a master's degree?! Sheesh.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Not to mention after you do your free student teaching for four months, you finish in mid-April and then can't get a teaching job until the following September. It's a beautiful system...it does make you wonder why anyone in their "sane" mind would do it. I know I'm not sane...what about the others?
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kwit
climber
california
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Feb 12, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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russ,
i am a teacher, and if you would like me to explain the history punctuation (and capitalization) to you i would be more than happy to do so. suffice it to say for now that different discursive spheres have different standardization requirements, and i am choosing to see this as an informal sphere.
as for "punching someone in the face": consider that a figure of speech, a lexical way of illustrating and so capturing the anger and frustration i see coursing through so many of these posts, and which are certainly present in mine.
you are mistaken to see this discussion as participating in a "more more more" economy. this is not a question of *more,* it is a question of redistribution based on community, state, and national values. we don't need more, precisely. what we need is a redistribution of wealth to be determined by need, efforts to motivate and stimulate, necessity of services, and labor. in other words, we need a market that is aware of "labor value" and "use value" and considers education a viable product. call me a marxist.
and the reason you do not feel my pain is, i assume, because you have never at the end of an 80-hour work week spent teaching and preparing had to decide whether or not to pay your insurance bill or your electric bill.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 12, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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Kwit:
I'm a victim of public schools. Could you make your point using smaller words and be a little more succinct? I'm guessing the point is carried over from your first post, and is "teachers are underpaid"? ( I'll pass on the free lesson though. )
In my opinion, they (teachers) are overpaid and overvalue themselves. I also think tenure is a curse, and is keeping your ranks swelled with non-committed and uninspiring lackeys that could probably only hold a job in academia, and nowhere else, save for behind a fry basket.
and the reason you do not feel my pain is, i assume, because you have never at the end of an 80-hour work week spent teaching and preparing had to decide whether or not to pay your insurance bill or your electric bill.
No, that is not why I don't feel your pain. I don't feel your pain Comrade because what I see is a glut of toadies riding high on the system, making a salary well in excess of their actual worth, and with more time off than just about anyone in a comparable pay scale. And if the long hours and past-due bill roulette are getting you down, perhaps you could look into getting a different job? Being poor and working 80 hours a week sounds like a drag.
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kwit
climber
california
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Feb 12, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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touché. i should have added, "...because i've chosen to do what i love, and see it as a large and necessary part of my commitment to social justice and equality."
and chrissakes, i am not usually such a bore. but this subject seems important enough to require earnestness.
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Sancho
climber
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Feb 12, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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Let's see. After 5 to 10 years, a teacher in California can make $60,000. Not great, but then again, they only work 9 months out of the year. How does that compute on an annual basis?
$60,000 / 9/12 = $80,000
Hmm, $80,000 isn't terrible, even in California.
But wait, teachers have solid gold retirement accounts. Teachers (and most other government employees) have defined benefit retirement plans. In other words, the employer pays the employee a defined amount from retirement to death, regardless of investment earnings or market returns on the amounts deposited. Teachers pay something like 8.5% of their pay to fund about half of this benefit. That doesn't even come close to funding the full amount. Let's say the state matches that 8.5%, which is a very conservative estimate. Where does that get us?
$80,000 * 1.085 = $86,800
Finally, medical and dental benefits for teachers are know to be very advantageous. I'm not sure how exactly to factor that in, but essentially the benefits comes at a very large cost.
Long story short, teaching is a hard job. But, when you add in the pay, the schedule and all of the benefits, teachers are paid adequately for their work.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 12, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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After graduating with a degree in Chemical Engineering during an economic downturn, I looked at being a teacher because I could not find a yob. It would have taken more school to teach than a Masters in Engineering so I did that.
Now I am fortunate in that I have a government job, but I donate 1 week of OT for every month I work. And my retirement account as a Fed is not as good as a teachers. But I am not complaining, I also make signifacntly more than a teacher.
They have a hard job, mostly dealing with the adults as evidenced in this thread.
However, teachers who want to complain about their pay should have thought of that when they went into it. All those stats are out there. I chose chemical engineering because it was the hardest damn thing and almost assured me of a good job. It was my decision and I assure you there wasnt no stinking grade inflation where I went.
Does society underappreciate teachers? probably so. Would it be better if education were privatized? I doubt it, for one, no neat retirement package. But you do a hard job with illiterate parents expecting you to teach their kids. so keep your chin up.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 12, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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lugar, look into internship teaching credential programs. I don't know if the have them in that state next to Illinois (guess I don't teach geography)but they do back here, and those hoosiers are resourceful; full statring pay while you student teach. i am a product of such a program.
I don't complain about teacher pay, but it's not like it's something you would do to be rich. Plenty of 80 hr works weeks too, Russ, if that makes you feel better. Pretty much what I've been doing since Jan 5 of this year. Ask anybody how many times I have made it to after work, weekday climbing events. Not a wide wednesday/thrash thursday yet!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Feb 12, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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At which CA public K-12 schools to teachers make 60K after 5 years? Are you talking about people that enter the profession and the pay scale with 10 years of previous experience and a Ph.D. Otherwise, I'm pretty surpised at that figure. And I get paid by the state of CA to teach.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 12, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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I am amazed by the number of students I see here at the University with Algebra and Geometry books.
Something like 60 percent of the students cannot pass the Math Entrance Exam.
Scary.
Juan
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