Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 02:52pm PT
|
bwancy1 wrote:
"Some dick at the Leap this weekend had his dogs running around the campground rushing and growling at campers (Yes, one dog with one eye, and one with the ridgeback...you know who you are f*#kwad). Then they tied the dogs to a tree near the trail to East wall so that their dogs could lunge at everyone passing, and threaten other dogs. Everyone at the Leap got to enjoy the sound of them barking all day Saturday. As we were packing to leave, one rushed my buddy again in the parking lot. When he confronted the owner, the guy said that he shouldnt have been vibing the dog. Give me a break. Their excuse was that other people had dogs too. All he had to say was "sorry, Ill make sure to keep them on a leash." The genius never got that the other dogs were at least friendly, leashed, and under control.
Ultimately I feel bad for the dogs...I was able to slightly get to know them (careful petting) and they seemed like nice dogs once they get to know you. They probably really enjoy being out with their masters spending the weekend (though I doubt that dogs enjoy being tied up all day). But all it takes is for them to bite one person and they will get taken away, good dog or not...Or attack another poor dog tied up...or get attached while tied up...or get lost. I would never endanger my dogs like these dildos. I would be devastated if anything happened to them. I leave mine at home and give them a long walk when I get back".
Oh my. I just love it when some totally anonymous guy calls people names like "f*#kwad" and "dildos"
after the fact--from the safety of a secure hiding place--having failed to do so in person. Thanks for the laugh.
Knowing DB, it's probably a good thing you didn't say those words to his face. LOL...
Well, there are two side to every story, and it's probably good to hear the other side.
I will post part of an e-mail below, and relate stuff from a phone conversation from a few minutes ago.
As you might guess, I happen to know those guys, and in fact are really good friends whom I climb with all the time. Needless to say, I have spent a lot of time with both of those dogs. Cam (the dog who snapped) was off-leash in the parking
lot as DB and CE were packing up to leave. Your friend almost stepped on Cam
and Cam snapped at him. DB apologized, but says you (whoever you are) really
escalated the situation while your friend was cool. He also said that you guys had
been around the dogs in camp and that there weren't any problems.
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him.
FWIW, Cam was raised in an abusive situation with the previous owner, and used to be really skittish
around people. While he has gotten much better, I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach. He has never bitten
anybody, but it's more about not making people uncomfortable or alarmed.
In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
He said that the dogs were nowhere near the trail on Saturday, but were tied up in
the shade between the main trail and the East Wall. From DB's e-mail, posted with permission:
--------------------------------------
Cam and Lola were tied up 150 ft off of the trail and
400 ft away from the base of Lovers Leap, on the
flats. When we climbed the east wall routes it would
take about 1.25 hours. Then we would check back with
the dogs treats, water, etc, before climbing another
route. When we were cragging the dogs were leashed
when other people were around and once they all got to
know each other they were let off. We had no problems
with any other people, just this one guy.
Incidentally, I almost got bitten by a dog that was
running around the base of the Leap. In fact, there
were two dogs running around the base on Saturday
barking and lunging at everybody that passed by. I love
dogs but I think that is unacceptable, these dogs
should have been tied up away from the cliff. If
there are anymore complaints about two dogs at the
leap last weekend I am sure it was these two and not
Cam and Lola. Lastly, there were about 15 dogs at the
Leap last weekend.
DB
--------------------------------------
Edit: (Forgot to mention that DB and CE were done with their 2 routes by noon
and then went 1-pitch cragging elsewhere with the dogs)
In the phone conversation with DB, he said that there were 2 dogs running loose
at the base of the East Wall, and one of the dogs nipped at DB and almost bit him.
There was a lady yelling from above: stop barking!! to one of those dogs,
and a guy was yelling at another dog to shut up. Finally, DB said that Lover's Leap
is one of the few multi-pitch areas where dogs are allowed. He would like to go to
the Valley but dogs aren't allowed there.
I would like to say (HK) that Strawberry has tons of dogs, and Lover's Leap is a dog-friendly place.
If this doesn't work for you, maybe you could try diplomatically talking
to the dog owners if you are having a problem -- being nasty rarely achieves anything.
From where I sit, it sounds like your friend was cool and that you (whoever you are)
were out of line with your nasty attitude and comments..
|
|
toyon
climber
davis, ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
|
like i said, we've all got stories about dogs at crags, and i have zero expectations that there is any possiblity of restriction dogs at the base of Lover's. Being a climber and not liking dogs is like being left handed in a right handed word, ya just gotta deal wit it.
but i am curious... the dominant direction of this thread seems to support the observation that, in general, dogs at crags are not a great idea - for the dogs, the owner, or others.
i relate to what Largo said above. To me it's downright bizarre how dogs get elevated to human status by many owners, and by extension there is some expectation that I like someone's dog or treat them with the same respect I would treat a person. Sometimes I get the impression from dog owners that, if i don't like their dog, it's somehow my issue and not theirs.
i'd be okay with that, were it not for the facts that A) dogs are not human, and B) the presence of a dog (regardless of its training) introduces a degree of unpredictability in any public environment. (Seems like controlling unpredicatbility would be a good thing in a heavy use climbing area, but that's just me barking up a tree.)
question remains, if you take away the sentimental connection between owners and their dogs (and i mean that as a purely hypothetical, internet fourm fantasy world "if"), what are the justifications for allowing dogs at the base of Lover's Leap?
-st
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 03:49pm PT
|
DB mentioned that one thing that really annoys him at the crags are crying babies.
I guess I could say the same. It's about acceptance. As annoying as a crying baby
might be to me, I'm honestly glad that the baby is out with the parents (especially climbing!)
and not in some room with a baby-sitter. And earplugs are cheap. ;-)
|
|
Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 03:50pm PT
|
At the Leap, dogs may keep the squirrels from eating your lunch.
Although, a bear canister works better, as we carried and stashed on Saturday.
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 03:52pm PT
|
waaaaaaaaa, theres dogs at the crags.... this horse has been beaten so many times. Taking my dog to donner this weekend. If you see a large german shepard approaching, run..
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
|
--especially if you hear someone yell:
Sick 'em!...
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:04pm PT
|
haha, "sick balls" is the command he knows, wear a cup at the crags...
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:18pm PT
|
Regardless of DB's excuses or attempts at distraction, the dogs were offleash and lunging at people in the campground and in the parking lot.
I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach
Bullshit!! They charged us twice on the trail in the campground...unleashed.
All they had to do is put the dogs on a leash and there would have been no problem. If your dogs lunge and intimidate people, put them on a leash! How can you argue with that? It doesn't matter if we were too close (by walking to the bathroom), or if the dog is a rescue dog, or anything else...if he’s sketchy put him on a leash! Period. And yes, I did make friends with the dogs. I pet them when they came into our camp...offleash still.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
|
Bilbo wrote:
At the Leap, dogs may keep the squirrels from eating your lunch.
Although, a bear canister works better, as we carried and stashed on Saturday.
Yeah, but a bear-canister won't keep scumbags from stealing your gear...
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:33pm PT
|
To Bwancy1:
Why don't you take it up with DB directly instead of making noise about it here?
Do you mind if I give him your e-mail address?
Or do you want to give me a phone # (via e-mail) that he can call?
It's not worth having bad blood over -- and if you have concerns you could tell
him without being an ass. (name-calling after the fact is indeed being an ass)
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
|
just to get a quick vote in:
no dogs at the crags (unless it's mine)
no babies at the crags
|
|
wildone
Social climber
the little ditch
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
|
I agree wholeheartedly with no dogs at the crag. I LOVE dogs. I mean it, they are my favorite freakin' animal, I like most dogs more than most humans, all doogs, big ones, little ones, etc.
Not at a crag.
Babies are ok with me, as I haven't run into the situation, but I doubt it would bother me much.
.02
|
|
malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 04:53pm PT
|
I like cats. A cat's respect is earned, and does not compromise it's independence. I don't dislike dogs, but I'm just not a dog person.
What I dislike the most is piles of dog crap left that are all over the place at crags and public parks. Cats bury their crap and clean themselves. Two traits I appreciate in people too :-)
|
|
DOR
Trad climber
NV.
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 06:37pm PT
|
I've never climbed at Lover's, and frankly "15 dogs on Saturday"
means I probably won't, at least on a weekend.
Why don't people understand that a yapping, whining, barking,
or worst of all unleashed, dog can ruin an otherwise perfect day on the rock! Try taking a dog for a round of golf, or an hour of tennis. Better yet, try taking your dog to the climbing gym. When have you ever over heard a climber say "Today sucked, man. Not a single dog at the crags."
Many folks go to considerable lengths, and expence, to arrive at a climbing destination, only to have a couple of dogs and thier shamless owners stomp on the scene.
I'm left-handed, it's never been a problem for me; nothing TO accept. I'm a climber, but I DO NOT have to accept another climbers dog. I'm not going to bitch behind your back, or stew over your lack of consideration for my precious time on the rock.
I'm not going to be distracted hazing your dog while you lead or belay. Like most other things in life, I'm going to confront you.
I'm going to be very clear about the action I will take if your dog, in any way, becomes a nusience. I'm not looking to make buddies, with you or your dog. That said, 98% of the folks I speak to either leave or the dog is not an issue.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
|
Let's hear about the other 2%...
|
|
DOR
Trad climber
NV.
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
|
Well HK, the dog that kept dry-humping on my daughter got maced.
I have pulled the rope and packed my stuff when the whacko pet people became hostile.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2005 - 01:59am PT
|
Dave wrote:
He also said that you guys had
been around the dogs in camp and that there weren't any problems.
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him.
FWIW, Cam was raised in an abusive situation with the previous owner, and used to be really skittish
around people. While he has gotten much better, I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach. He has never bitten
anybody, but it's more about not making people uncomfortable or alarmed.
In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
which has me thinking...
i have a dog, a very friendly and affectionate male yellow lab, not fixed. to me, he is the best of everything. he is a lover and he's beautiful, he is all wags and licks, unless some toughguy dog wants to mix it up, and then he will hold his ground, but never start anything, and if the other dog starts and then quits or the dogs are pulled apart, he instantly lets it go (just checking, not really into fighting you anyway).
i keep him off leash almost all the time. the upside is that he is used to being off leash and he doesn't spaz out, and he is used to responding to my voice commands (which he does very well, unless he sees a bush that he has never peed on before).
what troubles me about the above narrative is this:
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him...In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
the feeling i get is that it's the guys fault for nearly stepping on the dog...(?) perhaps that was just a failure of written communication, but if you have a skittish dog (kudos to the guy for taking in the dog and giving it a loving home and a better life, and a firey eternity in hell surely awaits anyone who abuses any animal) then you knowingly take an added responsibility when you take that dog to any place where that dog might interact w/ anyone or any other dog. if that dog almost got stepped on, then maybe the owner could have been slightly more careful about where he tied up his dog while he packed up the rig? traffic enters that parking lot from all directions, and you never know when someone will come squirting out between 2 cars or whatever.
additionally, and i wasn't there so what do i really know anyway, but i'll bet that an appologetic reaction by the dog owner would have gone a long way to preventing this story from making it onto the internet! (i.e. "BAD DOG, DOWN! oh my gosh, i didn't expect people to be walking right there or i'd have tied him up to that tree/left him in the car, he was abused as a puppy and he just gets suprised sometimes, he was just frightened, i'm sorry he snapped at you, he really is a sweetheart, it's my fault, again i'm sorry...)
instead what dog owners do is to learn to live with and accept the behavior patterns of their pets, and then internalize those behaviors and defend them as if they were inherant to the animal, like breathing or shedding, and then expect everyone to accept and accomodate the behaviors of their pet as if there were no other option. flatly put- there are other options, and lots of them.
my dog gets excited when we let him out of the house in the AM, and if there sre kids on the sidewalk or older people, i am always scared that he will jump up and try to kiss them on the face (which in those instances could cause harm). he was taught to jump up as a small puppy when it was cute, but 80 lbs later it's just not acceptable. we try to rid him of this behavior, but the only thing we can do is toi admonish him when he does it, so when he doesn't do it it'd not as if we can take him to the park and practice not jumping up...
what is the solution?
in my case, we make sure the area is clear when he 1st goes out in the AM, and we try to watch for pedestrians who might be at risk and make sure we have the dog sit or lie down as they approach.
on the plus side, i had the dog on the pizza dech the other week (on leash), and there were literally 8 or 10 kids petting him at once, as soon as their parens all realized that he was well behaved and that i had him entirely under control. it's just not every dog that you can do that with.
as far as the leap goes, it s nice to have a place to go climbing where you can legally take your dog along. it's not cool to put other people in a position where they are inconvenienced by the interaction with your dog. if your dog is violent, might be violent, or even if your dog might exibit behavior which other people who are not familiar w/ your dog might feel threatened by or might actually be threatened by, then as a dog owner, you need to find a way to ENTIRELY mitigate that risk and/or eliminate the opportunity for others to feel threatened by your dog, PERIOD, or leave your dog at home.
as far as dogs barking, tell the babies to quit crying, the newbies to quit crying, the euros to quit smoking, the sport climbers to quit swearing, the parties of three to quit lagging, the NOLS groups to quit toproping, and the projectors to quit ticking, and then maybe i'll be worried about the dogs barking (not that mine is a barker, but if dogs are legal, when the place gets crowded the dogs will too, and when there are several dogs, they will bark, they are just trying to see if any onf the other dogs want to f*#k, so it's really no different than seeing a whole slew of flowers!)
all that said, when there are a few dogs off leash at the east wall, they always start rinning back and forth along the wall and it is kind of a nightmare, but even so, my dog still wants to make it w/ your dog, especially if she's cute and has 4 legs and a tail.
it's just a shame that everyone doesn't have my wonderful dog...
=)
(mostly joking)
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2005 - 10:17am PT
|
Great post Matt, you said it better than I.
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2005 - 10:56am PT
|
toyon wrote:"To me it's downright bizarre how dogs get elevated to human status by many owners, and by extension there is some expectation that I like someone's dog or treat them with the same respect I would treat a person. Sometimes I get the impression from dog owners that, if i don't like their dog, it's somehow my issue and not theirs."
It sounds like you certainly do have issues. How did you add 2+2 and get 5? Dog's aren't human therefore they don't have to be treated with the respect and compassion that any intelligent animal deserves? wtf.
btw.
I feel like the open spaces and national forests are already way overregulated. I can't believe that climbers of all people want to add to this buracuarcy by suggesting more rules and regulations. Be careful what you ask for.
|
|
drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2005 - 02:12pm PT
|
I am a dog owner, and love her to death. She is well behaved and loves to be outside. That said, I think dogs at crags unattended is wrong. It's probabably why I stopped cragging. Bouldering is way more fun, and I can bring her along. I did say UNATTENDED. If you bring out your dog, just make sure they have a babysitter. After all, you wouldn't leave a baby unattended. Which brings up another point......Taking baby climbing. I think crying babies are just as annoying as barking dogs. Leave society at home....leave the babies at grandma's!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!