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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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You're describing someone being assertive vs. aggressive, Ana. Most of the women I have been in relationships feel the way you do. Getting in a fight over some jackass' petty attempt to hit on "your woman" is not only not cool, but it's ignorant and immature. It also denies the woman the chance to stand up for herself or handle things on her own terms. In these situations, a woman will let you know if she needs you to step in. Otherwise, you're probably sticking your chest out and beating it for your own benefit, not hers.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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I enjoy looking at your body is not the best choice of words if you want to give a compliment.
I've seen physically fit women in the grocery store and asked them what they did to stay in shape, and if they did any rock climbing, and even if they are married, they react well to this, cause it's a compliment that isn't flirting or hits at a pick up line.
Of course you say this with a smile, not a leer.
Who knows what that guy in the article meant though? Maybe he was hitting on her, maybe a little drunk, maybe he regrets it now. OR maybe not. Maybe he covets his neighbors wife, LOL.
Or maybe he was just being a dumb guy and not thinking about how his intended compliment would sound.
I agree with the advice columnist for once-- it's not something you should have to ask advice on how to handle, LOL.
My favorite response for her would have been, "Oh that's nice. What does you wife think about that?"
Of course if the guy comes back with, "She's hot for you too.", it's time to run, hahahah.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Thank you to Lugar, happie, LEB and Anastasia for finally trying to answer the question. The question was not, "Was the comment offensive?" The writer was troubled by it and many women have stated they find it offensive. Therefore it is offensive. The receiver of the comment or of any similar comment is the only important judge. If you receive a similar comment and you find it offensive then it is offensive. No one should argue with you about that.
The question I tried to ask was simply, "Can you explain why it was offensive?"
I have quite a few ideas on the matter, but I don't want to pontificate and lecture too soon. But I think it is a very interesting and important subject.
LEB, your example sounds very uncomfortable and it doesn't sound like you ever figured out a way of getting them to stop. You were stuck working with them. Maybe they thought you were being overly sensitive? Maybe they were just clueless. But your "invasion of space" idea sounds like it is on the right track. Especially if the invader is clumsy and you do not know whether you can trust them. We get in each others space all the time, but there is a process that we go through to determine how close we will allow another person into our space.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Dirtineye hit one of my other thoughts. How do you give someone a compliment. A compliment means that you take the time and effort to notice something about the other person. Then you take the effort to express interest or appreciation for it. If done correctly it starts a conversation about something of mutual interest. I think the best compliments are about things which the other person has control and has made some effort. When I make a compliment, I notice that effort. It leads to a conversation since the other person can talk about their efforts and I can compare my similar efforts in some similar way.
If I compliment a woman on her body, what can she say about it? It is the same body she has always had. She does not have any choice in the matter. It also means I have not made the effort to notice anything else about her. As a guy, I notice her body because it is different than mine and different than others I see. But for her there is no difference in her body now than a little while ago, so she can't really say much.
Now, as Radical said, maybe the guy was just hoping the girl would say, "You're hot too, lets do it!" But it seems like a pretty ineffectual and clumsy way to get a girl interested.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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hahaha... I'm just curious how old you two are? :) Actually, I think I have a rough idea of how old Paul is - certain I've seen him around. LEB can maybe blame it on living on the east coast, on a farm or whatever it is...
But, come on, Paul! You're not talking about any of the `No females who are under 30. Really under mid-late thirties either... hahaha
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"If I compliment a woman on her body, what can she say about it? It is the same body she has always had."
How old are the women you talk to? Do you speak to women older than their mid-20s? After a certain age, none of have the same body we always had.
"She does not have any choice in the matter."
She doesn't have any choice in the matter--other then exercise, weight loss programs, and cosmetic surgery.
Exercise and weight loss programs cannot change everything. Cosmetic surgery is expensive and some people think it is fake or cheating.
Many people are insecure and have self-doubt about their looks and like to hear that they look nice even if they have the same body they always have had.
"It also means I have not made the effort to notice anything else about her."
In your conversations, are you limited to a quota of one compliment per person?
"As a guy, I notice her body because it is different than mine and different than others I see."
That is all you notice? It is different? That's more insulting than the comment described in the advise column.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Sorry if this is a repeat, don't have time to read all the replies, but the line is offensive because the comment "objectifies" the woman. In other words, he basically is saying I'd like to put my prick in you regardless of who you are as a person, it doesn't matter to him if she's intelligent, funny, insightful, etc. He's basically saying to her that she would be a good "object" to "get his rocks off" on. I think they make latex dolls for that, btw. I think his comment may "offend" most people, and that is how "we" as a society measure what is offensive and what is not. Wow, did I get sucked into this one.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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There are PLENTY of climber gals in their 40s who look great.
They deserve nice compliments.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Again, I think that's a pretty poor judgment, Dick, that is based on your own perception, which has been molded from your own experiences. Unless you have ESP, you really have no idea, as you weren't there. You really have no idea the context of the conversation, what exactly was said, etc...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Again, apples and oranges... Saying to a woman, "Hey babe, you look real hot, want to f*#k?!" is a bit different than saying, "I like looking at your body." Entirely different, actually.
And it wasn't a "he" that posted. Funny thing is, the woman wasn't writing so much to ask if what the "I like your body" person said was wrong, so much as she was asking if her husband's reaction was appropriate.
All this thread really does is grossly show just how "way too uptight" Americans really are.
edit: given the nature of this thread, I'd like to point out that this is post #69. :)
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Paul,
It is offensive because that comment objectifies the woman. She is not his to like or dislike, plus... He should not be disrespecting his wife or the woman's significant other by looking at this woman and verbalizing his attraction. She is off limits, should not be hit on, etc. The words "I like..." means it is for his pleasure, his desires... That is pretty freaky.
Plus, It is especially rude to do this during a gathering of friends. People gather in such groups to build stronger connections based on respect. By being so disrespectful, he just threw that feeling of trust between all of them right out the window.
AF
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Paul's not married. Also, it doesn't sound like he has a sister, or a mother, or a girlfriend, etc.
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