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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 27, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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A permit system would be nice. With your fee, you also get an emrgency communication device. When you've completed the climb you return the device for the next team. Kind of a co-operative style. I hate not being able to communicate in bad weather or a tight situation.
Just a thought
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 27, 2008 - 12:52pm PT
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Jingy, please tell me your trolling...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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May 27, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
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Full story please?
You cannot park a car on a street in California for more than 72 hrs. At that point a city can and often will tow you if a neighbor complains. Not sure how all this works out in a national park. The NPS generally doesn't do this. But, if you're thinking about suing, after 72 hrs you're in the wrong.
Perhaps you had food in your car? Perhaps it was a beater that had been there so long they thought it was abandoned?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 27, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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They should issue permits to use your brain.
You'd be denied.
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enjoimx
Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
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May 27, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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Permit to climb a rock?
Please God no...
Rangers in the valley searched my car once when they saw a rainbow colored bowl (as in a cereal bowl) in my back windshield. Asked me if i had drugs in the car...complete bullsh#t. I have no record of any kind except seatbelt tickets so they obviously didnt get any info if they ran my plates.
The ranger situation in the valley is corrupt...ive seen them hiding in bushes trying to catch people smoking pot...I've also seen them stop someone riding their bike the correct way down the street at night, with a headlamp, and subsequently breathalize and give a BUI.
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James
climber
Santa Cruz
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May 27, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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Spleen,
Sorry to hear that the rangers broke into your car, merited or not (and I suspect the latter) that is quite a personal violation. I hope things worked out okay for you.
I'm apposed to a permit system- one more hassle to deal with, one more way for people (not just the park service) to know you're in the valley, and one more bureaucratic step towards larger climbing enforcement in Yosemite National Park.
Though a lot of times the rangers are helpful and extremely vital to daily life in Yosemite, they can also be the Green Gestapo.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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May 27, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
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I do not support a permit system. Too many variables what if your climb takes longer than expected and you surpass the alotted time your permit allowed. Plus we have enough regulations in life.
Last summer my friend and I climbed El Cap and after making it back down our car was not where we parked it. Being quite confused as to where it was we flagged down a ranger and after giving the ranger a description we were informed it had been towed. Reason being was a bear had attacked the car. The Bear never broke inside the car, but did rip the bumper off the rear and slashed one of our tires. The ranger told us they had it towed for safety. They did not charge us an impound fee but we did get charged $96 for the towing fee.
We were thankful that they moved it to stop further damage, but do not feel it was appropriate to charge us for the towing fee. We did not leave food or anything visible inside. We followed the rules and still got the shaft.
Dave
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 27, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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MZiebell - With what I saw yesterday... No, not a troll.
Just wonder if the idea has been brought up.
I understand that humans can and should be able to climb the Cap anytime they feel. I just saw a situation that could have been averted if there was a clear line of communication between an injured climber on the wall and the people who have volenteered to rescue those in need.
Troll, if that's the case, this entire site may be troll central. I don't believe this to be true. There have been many exchanges between an individual and the community. Exchanges that have led to some pretty good education to many. That's how my post should be treated. Just an idea, that may or may not solve a specific problem. Sorry, I just have this inherent/want to try to make easier to communicate with those on the wall.
I also understand that if a particular individual has the ability to climb walls, or they feel they have the experience to do so, they are taking the entire risk on themselves and are in for whateveer they are in for from start to finish. I just think that if the situation should take an unexpected twist... What if?
If nothing else, we learn a way that is no good/doesn't work and can be re-thought in order to make it applicable.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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May 27, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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" I hate not being able to communicate in bad weather or a tight situation."
Ever thought of getting a cell phone? Or at least an FRS radio?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 27, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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"ive seen them hiding in bushes trying to catch people smoking pot..."
Wow. Law enforcement officers attempting to enforce the law?
F%$# Your eyes must of been popping out of your head.
spleenless...
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 27, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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What about the permit system in Zion? Got to have a permit if you are going to overnight and bivy.
I'm surprised it hasn't happened in the valley yet!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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May 27, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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Jingy
Some people don't want or need your soft pillow of security.
Being self sufficient is part of the game, its one of the major reasons why people climb. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way and only climb with a safety net. You really are missing out on an important part of the adventure.
I realize everyone doesn't have a taste for adventure and the self reliance it envokes, but please, don't force your safety net on those of us who do.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 27, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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Jingy,
I'm ok with climbers having whatever means of comms they want to have, but please, let's not ask the Park Service to supply us with comms. Climbers are already given sooooo many beni's by the NPS; let's not push our luck.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 27, 2008 - 06:23pm PT
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Salamanizer - Not forcing anything. And if that's the reason you climb... What are you doing here? You should be out there being the worlds best, most self reliant soloist. Self sufficiancy can get you into trouble, and I hope you never need any help, ever.
MZiebell - Who said anything about NPS supplying this comm? Could be co-operative system. We as a climbing community are pretty resourceful and we have made some advances in saving lives through hardware inovations. Why not in this area? Again, just ideas, not writen in stone or any rule books, anywhere in the wrold.
If a guy can't ask a question, what good is this forum?
Move on, don't think about it.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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May 28, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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Salamanizer - Not forcing anything. And if that's the reason you climb... What are you doing here? You should be out there being the worlds best, most self reliant soloist. Self sufficiancy can get you into trouble, and I hope you never need any help, ever.
If I may retort, it's apparent you're two damn dense to understand simple concepts, so I'll try to dumb it down a little bit.
GO F*#K YOURSELF
Your asinine proposal for a permit system fills me with an unquenchable urge to defecate. How is it you feel a permit system would in any way "not force" anything on me. I would have to pay your pointless, obtuse and inane fee whether willing or not wouldn't I ? Why the hell should I have to pay for a permit so you and your kind can feel safer? I'll probably have to pay for the rescue anyway. What happens If I break or drop your stupid radio? Do I have to pay for it too? I don't want that liability. What if I fail to get my permit? More fees?? I already pay for and own a cell phone. Should I be forced to carry it everywhere I go. Hell no!
And furthermore, where do you get off masquerading me as "the worlds best, most self reliant soloest"? Is that what you ascertained from my post? That comment underscores your moronic observations as actually being retarded. self sufficiency can get you into trouble What? It will allow you to get "yourself" out of trouble is what it will do.
Sorry I did not produce the reply you wanted to hear. It's clear your mind is already made up that you are right and everyone else must prove you wrong. I could sense the patrouli stink in your snide comments a mile away.
At first I thought you to be just another troll. Then I realized it's hard to see the obvious truths when your head is planted so far up your a*#. There's another word for you, Bohab.
So before you go into some long-winded and ultimately asinine tirade. I really don't care to argue. Just know that if you or another bohab decides to pursue an idea as foolish as a permit system in Yosemite, you'll be met with ruthless, vicious opposition from all fronts. Which is not to exclude a possible kick to the spleen.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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May 28, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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My colleagues...
When my good friends in the National Park Service, pitiable idiots that they are, almost as pitiable as was I when I was so stupid as to assist the federal government with slaughtering Vietnamese for refusing to kowtow to the repugnant mental midgets in Washington DC, arrested and jailed me for asking the Park Service certain questions ON RECORD, other people quickly said that I must not be telling the whole story.
But they never had the patience to listen to the whole story which revealed the Park Pigs as far more lawless and malicious than my introduction indicated. The US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more malicious and contemptible than the US news journalists report, as easily verifiable by those who know how to ask the type questions the Alaskan Alpine Club has asked the National Park Service.
Because the dumbed-down US climbers and other Americans bicker at websites such as this one, much to my profound enjoyment, and foolishly support the Access Fund, American Alpine Club, the DemocanRepublicrat Regime and such power-based institutions predicated on replacing rights with privileges to scam money for being granted privileges that were rights, instead of learning how to ask effective questions to retain your rights, all climbing and other common human actions in the US will progressively be added to permit systems, with fees, for those who do not learn which questions to ask, how, much to the amusement of the observers.
The act of asking permission, that is, acquiescing to getting a permit or license, or paying a fee, is the prevailing law act of willfully surrendering one's rights, the only process by which one can be lawfully separated from one's rights.
How did you surrender your fundamental right to walk (climb) on YOUR public land?
Now, what questions would you therefore have for the mental midget National Park Service thugs, ON RECORD, to therefore learn that which routinely effects my (and then your) robust laughter at the humans who remain so ignorant by making statements rather than asking questions?
May you learn the most knowledge of the most concepts, most efficiently.
DougBuchanan.com
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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May 28, 2008 - 03:21am PT
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Break downs in communication happen all the time, no need for a permit system.
Spleen don't drink and post it's not condusive to your controlling nature.
And if your gonna be so declarative on "rangers breaking into your car" then give us the whole story.
Otherwise get off the net and back to your single malt.
Ten years in the valley is a hickup in time. jerk off elsewhere not impressed
In a state that has more regulations than the epic number of people living in it. A little freedom to climb when and how ya want is nice.
Jingy go to the gym great cell reception.
Doug you sound like a really good question asker guy..!
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 28, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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Salamanizer - WOW! Big words...
May I retort...
"GO F*#K YOURSELF" - Solves a bunch of problems, I'm sure. Grow up.
Before you yell at me, take a quick look at who and when this thread was started. Just so you don't have to go to far, and to make it easy on you I'll post it here.... Ready?:
Who: spleen
When: May 25, 2008, 11:30am PT
My comments came in late in the game. See: Jingy May 27, 2008, 09:42am PT. Not sure how I'm forcing anything on you or the community. But if that's how you see it, I'm not sure I'll be able to convince you that I am not the all powerful dark lord of climbing permits that you make me out to be.
Read my entire post, please. I stated "...Kind of a co-operative style..." meaning that this system can/could be entirely run by the climbing community.
To asnswer your questions:
"Your asinine proposal for a permit system fills me with an unquenchable urge to defecate." - You should take care of that instead of writing about it.
"How is it you feel a permit system would in any way "not force" anything on me." - Look up above, again, my idea was a co-operative. You police, I police, we all police.
"I would have to pay your pointless, obtuse and inane fee whether willing or not wouldn't I ?" - No. Co-op.
"Why the hell should I have to pay for a permit so you and your kind can feel safer?" - Again, co-op.
"I'll probably have to pay for the rescue anyway." - Maybe you do. What's more important to you, your money and freedom? Or your life. How much is that worth to you?
"What happens If I break or drop your stupid radio? Do I have to pay for it too?- I don't know. I'm not the maker of rules. I am the discusser of ideas bent on saving lives. Again, coming out of the valley watching YOSAR putting off until tomorrow what they could do today.
"I don't want that liability." - You have a job? Pay $$ for a new device. What's the big deal. Oh, I'm sorry, your saving for your retirement. Or would this dip into your fun-seeking, safty-netless adventure? Please.
"What if I fail to get my permit? More fees??" - Not a rule maker, but... you have been lambasting me so long now, I think that you've missed my point entirely.... But I continue..
"I already pay for and own a cell phone. Should I be forced to carry it everywhere I go. Hell no!" - You pay the man so that you can call your friends to come pick you up to go on your self sufficient adventures... Sounds.. nice. But again, I have to repeat, you ar not being forced into anything. And I am not your superior/authority figure/father. So you don't have to buck these ideas out of hand, and without thought. You do carry food and water on your adventures, don't you? Explain the difference. Oh yeah, weight issues. I get it.
"And furthermore, where do you get off masquerading me as "the worlds best, most self reliant soloest"? " - Sorry. I took your words literally. You said "...Being self sufficient is part of the game, its one of the major reasons why people climb. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way and only climb with a safety net. You really are missing out on an important part of the adventure.
I realize everyone doesn't have a taste for adventure and the self reliance it envokes, but please, don't force your safety net on those of us who do." I read this as "I get off on being self sufficient and adventurous." I see that I was wrong?
"That comment underscores your moronic observations as actually being retarded." - Just another childish comment. No comment from me.
"self sufficiency can get you into trouble What? It will allow you to get "yourself" out of trouble is what it will do." - Ok. But tell me, how the farm doing? You live in a tent, right? How do you get around town? How much of your life is truly controlled by others?
With the time getting close, I will leave you with this...
"Sorry I did not produce the reply you wanted to hear. It's clear your mind is already made up that you are right and everyone else must prove you wrong." - Can I repeat that? Or, it sounds like you've made up your mind as well. I leave you the way I came.
Again, this is a discussion board and as such I will not continue to discuss, just not this issue. My only consern in all of this was based on a specific events that I witnessed in the valley and a possible idea for resolution. Thank you for your time. All.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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May 28, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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Jingy:
I assume you don't realize that you are posting variously between this thread and another. Not a big deal, it just makes it a little difficult to keep up with you.
You said "Again, coming out of the valley watching YOSAR putting off until tomorrow what they could do today."
It sounds like you're self-referencing the other thread ("Salethe Rescue") that you started. Are you upset that YOSAR didn't rescue the guys on Long Ledge the late afternoon of the first day?
Well, that's a legitimate comment/question. Next time you're in the Valley I encourage you to stop by the SAR Cache and chat with any of the techs there about it. Or stop by the SAR Site in Camp 4. There are good reasons and procedures that are in place to ensure rescuer survival. From the outside, I admit that it can look like responders are heartless and/or lazy.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 28, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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MZiebell - Not saying anything about YOSAR or their response.
Yes, self referencing my post Salethe Rescue.
Yes, I understand there were very good reasons for waiting to start the extraction: weather conditions, seriousness of injury, personel availability... etc. Understood and taken into consideration.
Stop.
The guys turned out to be up there on the wall for 4 days prior to rescue. Comm device forgot by the climber, not working, out of coverage range? Yes, all understood. Thank you for the pointers.
If there was a permit that stated "I plan on going up Salethe. I will be gone for XX days. If not returned by such and such a date, send help, you know where I'll be"....
End of story.
No need to teach me any more. I have learned more in this discussion than I had ever expected. Mostly about the climbers who post on this board.
Maybe more later when I get another hole from the other
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