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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 08:47pm PT
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Hey nature is your dog named arrow? where you in the needles this summer? I think we might have bumped into one another. You might know my buddy eric living in flagstaff.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 08:59pm PT
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clayman, nope - my dog is named Summit and I've only been to Needles for about 10 minutes to pick up my buddy The Doctor (Bloom).
I know an Eric or two that live here in flagstaff but chances are good it's not one and the same. It's amazing how many climbers live here yet few know each other. A bunch of isolated climbing circles it seems. Is his last name Whiteman by chance?
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 09:56pm PT
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nope, his last name is Bostard ( I always call him "The Bostard") he just moved out there and is going to school. tempting me, he cant stop talking about the climbing scene...
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 11, 2005 - 01:43am PT
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One thing that ive found with using pro traxtions is to never haul with the black side facing out. it seems like it would not matter, but it totally matters. Me and my bro have used it to tighten slacklines and put way more stress on it than experienced when hauling, all with the gold side up. However, i had the bags slipping on me when i was hauling up to heart ledge with the black side of the PT out. A couple folks i talked to said theyve had the PT slip with the black side out. It has never slipped on me with the gold side out even when put under the huge streses of tightening slacklines. gold side out always.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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hmmm..... HMMMMMMM......... very interesting. We had the problem of the rope slipping back through the PT up in the Vamps. We decided it was due to our new static ropes - Sterling HTP Static (frikin not cheap!). When we inspected (during a haul) the rope around where the teeth of the PT bit in, we noticed the rope flattened big time. The sides of the cam teeth thingy would touch the rope but the teeth wouldn't bite.
I'm going to experiment with this a bit to see if maybe it was the BPP (black plate phenom).
hmmmm...
CLAYMAN: MOVE TO FLAGSTAFF - IT IS YOUR CALLING! Plus I can buy you a beer if you are right on this one (in my case, I mean).
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 11, 2005 - 02:55am PT
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Nature-its on dude-im coming out weekend after next, over presidents day to talk to the nau folks. if all goes well, ill be out there in the fall. test the BPP, its is true. gold side out. show me the paradise forks!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2005 - 03:03am PT
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Oh I'm not doubting the gold plate out part. I don't recall which way we had it so I'm not sure it's the BPP that we dealt with. If it is I'm way stoked. If not, I'm not happy with one of the most frickin' expensive static cords I've ever seen.
The forks in a week is probably still under three feet of snow. It's sorta brutal around here. I got that window of nice weather about two weeks ago (with John) and ever since it's been all about snow, rain and cold. Either way, we'll hook up for a beer. I'll want to get out if possible but Sedona will be the warm spot. And even if we could make it out to the Forks the rock would be so damn cold inside the cracks it would suck the life outta your finger/hand jams.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 11, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
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Nature, you should head down this way. Highs are getting' close to 70. Nice climbing all around.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 11, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
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Nice photos. Thanks for redoing it. Now maybe we can figure this stuff out. Based on this image:
I believe this to be a terrible rig, because there are no Degrees Of Freedom. This is the type of rig that will create a living nightmare for you on the wall. Fortunately, there is a Better Way.
1. You should never [unless you are out of rope] attach the end of the haul line to the top of the swivel. You should attach the haul line to the swivel "right where it is" - meaning if you have a 200-foot haul line, and the pitch is 150' long, then you should attach the pig at the 150-foot point, with 50' feet of excess haul line. This excess haul line becomes the lower-out line.
2. The knot you should use is an alpine butterfly. It's stronger than a figure-eight-on-a-bight. Honest! I always suspected this to be true, but was not certain until I read a Bluewater[?] advert or tech note in one of the mainstream climbing mags within the last year. Equally importantly, the butterfly is HUGELY easier to untie after loading it.
3. There is no Degree Of Freedom connecting the swivel to the end of the rope. You should use a locker here. I see you have turned the swivel right-side up since the previous photos - good.
4. Similarly, there is no Degree Of Freedom on the bottom of the swivel - there should be a Master Suspension Point locker here, too, not a piece of rope. You have hosed yourself on both ends. Sooner or later, you will regret this. This is not Big Wall Theory, it is Big Wall Fact. If you don't believe me, just wait til you're on a wall wrasslin' a hundred-pound piggy. Haul lines get tangled, and need to be fixed from time to time. Haul bags get twisted, and need to be untwisted. Leave your degrees of freedom in the system, dude.
5. I do like the built-in Catch Lines! However THEY should be attached to the Master Suspension Point locker with their own locker, to maintain the Degrees Of Freedom. In lieu of a regular locker, you could attach the Catch Lines to the Master Suspension Point using a Mexican Locker, which is a standard crab whose gate has been secured with duct tape.
6. I recommend using a Haul Bag Strap Load Release Knot Cord on the short strap of the pig, and securing it to the Master Suspension Point locker with a Load Release Knot. This makes pig wrasslin' that much easier - you never have to fight with a crab, and your pig will always hang straight.
7. Why is there no Docking Tether on the rig? Did you leave it off for simplicity? Please tell me you're not going to hang it off that purple daisy! Good grief! That will Charlie-Foxtrot your already clusterf*cked Suspension Point! And if you do hang your pig from the daisy, please tell me how you are going to release the pig to cut it free to lower out? [And don't tell me you're going to construct a "mini-haul" - the Docking Tether is emphatically the Better Way] With no offense to Largo since the mini-haul appears in his book.
8. The best rope protector I have ever found is one of those automotive funnels that you use for pouring transmission fluid. It has a very gentle taper - it is tall and skinny - and lets your pig glide around roofs and stuff. Remember as you stack your haul line into your haul line bag at the top of the pitch, you will switch ends of the haul line, so the top is on top. What I am telling you is that you are switching ends of your haul line on each and every pitch - not only does this simplify stackification, but it evens out the abrasion on both ends of the haul line. And when you switch ends each pitch, you sure as hell don't want to be fighting a figure-eight on top of your swivel every time! You want a nice locker there, with a nice easy-to-untie butterfly knot.
The above eight problems seem evident to me, since I have spent too much time hauling piggage up big walls. While some of my suggestions above you can take or leave, I emphatically argue that you should be switching ends of the haul line each and every pitch, to aid in the simplification of stacking your haul line. If you are not soloing, and have a partner to manage the rope, you might be OK. If you are soloing, switching ends is FUNDAMENTAL. Take it from one who has soloed eight El Cap walls.
I am Dr. Piton,
and you shouldn't listen to a damn thing I have to say, because [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=5017"]I dropped my partner's pig off of Scorched Earth on El Cap.[/url]
Sheesh.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2005 - 08:25pm PT
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First, it should, and probably is noted by many, that my simply acknowledging your response is more than some might expect. Unlike your first post, the above is more thoughtout and not "uncool" let's just say. That doesn't mean my issue with you has subsided.
I will first say that coiler is the individual that recommended this system to me. I respect him to the point that I will give it a try. I won't comment on my respect towards you. Let's all be glad.
Next I will say, I will not address any of your points regarding having a locker in the system (well, I probably will). The point is to eliminate all lockers. If the swivel was not there i'd be tieing the red rope to the short strap of the bag. That said, I fully accept the loss of SOME degrees of freedom. I'll take wrestling a pig over sending one for a 200 footer at this point. I'm trying something new and I'm sure, as you say, to some degree, it will return to haunt me. I'm accepting that.
In the interest of learning - addressing each point:
1) I agree. That extra rope could be used for the lower out. Usually though, I've had an extra lead line that did nothing but serve as the lower out. I don't see this being a problem. I'll be using the blue cordalette to lower out - more on that in a bit.
2) The the strength point in my mind is moot - how much force are you really applying compared to the 7200 lb TS of that red rope of mine? Not enough for me to care about strength of knots. That said, ease of untieing I do accept. I will look into that knot. HUGELY - noted.
3) moot in light of removing all biners from system (except the secondary ones)
4) moot point again except to say I do accept the fact I may hose myself. I will live and learn.
5) in essence, the catchlines *are* the master point. Gotta like the fact my master point does two things at once, ehh?
6) covered under 7) below
7) purple is a daisy for gear long enough to go inside the bag. The blue line is the docking and undocking line (meunter-mule). It's my lower out. As to if it should be attached to that red tab that Deuce sewed inside the short strap well, I'd like him to tell me WTF that red thing is for! I suspect it's to be used to doc the pig but I really don't know. I do see it'll make the pig hang the "way I want" so I'm giving it a go. I do want to know how bomber that thing is suppose to be. Guess I could run over to the north side of flag, knock on his door, and ask.
8) ricardo noted the funnel. Forgot to buy it today. done deal on that. I, however, as I've always have done, will not be switching ends. Just my system and considering my next gig is a solo, i'm not going to change. I'll do a bit of extra work.
"The above eight problems are glaringly obvious to anyone who has spent any amount of time hauling piggage up big walls."
I've done my time. Glaringly obvoius it is not.
The fact that I listened to anything you said in this thread should be treated by anyone that noted it with a beer - for me.
I'm going with the coiler knot. I'll report back.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 11, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
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1. Try my way and you will see.
2. Good. Figure-eights have no place here anywhere.
3. & 4. Have fun.
5. Don't like it a bit. No Degrees of Freedom.
6. As you like, take it or leave it.
7. Holy! Isn't that little red handle just for picking the pig up? Use the straps for docking it, unless you are CERTAIN that red thing can support the pig, which it looks unable to do. And you can't let your pig hang all lopsided like that EVER - it will hang up on every nubbin of rock it encounters. However the internal daisy is perfect.
8. Not switching ends is total foolishness. Ricardo is right about the funnel - guess who taught him?
I do look forward to your solo ascent report, because I suspect you may have a change of heart about some parts of your system, which I believe to be flawed.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2005 - 09:03pm PT
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1) what part of - i'm using coilers system - don't you get?
7) the red strap is not a handle - it's 1" long. what, sticking one finger through it to use it as a handle? I don't plan to haul on it - plan to hang it at the belays on that point (backed up, of course). Again, I've no idea what Deuce intended - I'm guessing and nobody has a better answer to bitch-slap me that I'm high on what it "is for". My pig will stay straight.
hmm... but maybe you don't get it. Actually, I explained exactly how I plan to use the docking teather in an above post. Your job to read - not going to repeat.
8) read above. ricardo already gave you credit. typical....
my 10 walls or so and whatever is enough for me to feel I've spent more than enough time to evalute my system. If I'd traveled at your rate I'd have atleast 100 wall days in. I prefer my less than about 30.
And PS back: It's not your attitude. I spoke with Ted - your buddy from the Muir - just three hours ago. Need I disclose his feelings? He's one of my best friends - and his name is Tad - and my feelings are the same as his. I leave it at that.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Feb 11, 2005 - 09:10pm PT
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Nature,
I think you are having a knee jerk reaction. "Joe" had a similar reaction on WFLT with me. At the start he used up half the runners and half the locking biners rigging, backing up, and backing up the backups. He also insisted on a double bowline for a tie in instead of a butterfly. He knew the former, I knew the latter, somehow he won (this worked out since he did all the lower outs and I did ALL the hauling).
From the various versions of the pig's big ride, I came under the impression that miscommunication, and hippie grass were more of the root causes. Trying to make the rigging idiot proof means you are doomed to climb with a bigger idiot. It seems to me there are more straight forward ways to keep communications open and biners closed. Duct tape is cheap...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 11, 2005 - 09:28pm PT
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I think you guys are overanalyzing this "joe" guy...
Sounds to me like the biner came unclipped...could have happened to the best of 'em. Duck Tape helps keep the gate locked until you need it open.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 12, 2005 - 11:28am PT
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It is uncool to blame your partner[s] for your epics or failures on a big wall, and even more uncool to do so in an internet forum.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Feb 12, 2005 - 12:00pm PT
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I'm ignorant of the issues at hand, though I have hauled a pig or three in my time.
If you've got a dedicated lower-out line on your pig (and all non-BWTs do) I see NO reason to be tying and untying and retying your haul line. Seems like a good way for a bag to take the big digger if you ask me.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2005 - 12:11pm PT
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Maybe it isn't clear, or maybe you are referring to folks clipping/unclipping. I've no intention of removing the bag from the end of the haul line while on the wall. Once this bad boy is tied in, it won't be untied until I'm back on the ground. Were you referring to the other folks?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 12, 2005 - 12:46pm PT
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You can click here to [url="http://rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=251"]read my Muir Wall trip report.[/url] I wrote this some time ago, and I have made an agreement with the website on which it appears not to touch anything there that I have written. Were I given the opportunity to edit it, I would probably soften it a bit in retrospect.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 12, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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damm ...
this thread was actually pretty informative .. and in good spirits .. until pete just posted and totally insulted nature ..
WTF pete -- you should keep quiet .. answer the man's questions and keep the rest out of it .. -- i'm just tired of seeing all sorts of threads get boiled down to a flamefest
anyways ...
nature .. btw .. are you the guy who bartends at a bar in S.F. .. or was that one of your partners on that wall .. thats the guy who i remember talking to back in may --
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2005 - 01:36pm PT
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ricardo - it should be noted that I had some posts in there that I've since deleted (now making the CA look like he's talking to himself :). That's not to say pete isn't being his typical ASSassin self but I played my part. He'll probably delete much of that stuff.
No, that wasn't me. That was the smart guy in the group - the guy that bailed earlier that day. You probably remember talking to him as he spent a his day in and around the base. We only met briefly. We wrapped the lines right to where you were racking up. I was there for only about 10 minutes and I'm not sure we said much.
Moof - do mean kneejerk in that I'm going to extremes with this? That may be true, but I've thought this out for quite some time. It ain't kneejerk if I've thought about it this long. I'll repeat it yet again - I'm taking the advice from someone I deeply respect and I'm just trying to make sure I do what he suggested.
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