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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Why not give the Arcturas guys the benefit of the doubt? They were the ones that were up there and appeared to have made a reasoned decision. It makes no sense to drill a bolt where there is solid pro--drilling is more time consuming and takes more energy. In any case, aid climbs must yield to free climbing, even if it takes some bolting.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Have you climbed everything you're ever going to climb, Matt?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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M- i sure hope not!
re: aid climbs must yield to free climbing, even if it takes some bolting
oh geezz, here we go...
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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It's easier to clip a bolt free climbing then place a piece. Sending a large route becomes significantly easier when there's bolts. Placing the bolt instead of fiddling with gear will save time and help the redpoint. However, it lacks style.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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James you're wrong, I'm the one working the route and I'm doing it all on top rope. If I add any bolts they'll be on free variations away from the aid line. I'll use them as directionals in my single push top rope ascent. I have stolen several lines from YOSAR and won't even have to use multiple toprope anchors. Its gonna be sick, the new standard. I just hope nobody beats me to it.
-Justin
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Speaking of arcturus here:
Pounding pins and bolts both damage the rock. Actually pins damage the rock more but bolts change the safety and difficulty more, so it becomes a style/ethics versus preservation game.
Of course we could expect the free climber could be more bold and run it out but we could also expect the aid climbers to use cam hook, two lobe aliens and C4 clean gear over A1 pins so the door swings both ways.
Matt wrote
"if someone aids a line, and then for whatever reason nobody ever does it, but it offers high quality free climbing potential that is significantly more appealing than the aid line ever was, and if the FA is on board w/ the FFA wrt equiping the route for free climbing, then you have to at least consider those facts (not that the answers will always be determined by them). "
I agree. The route doesn't see aid repeats even though it's not hard. A little compromise to make the route "Bi" (either aid or free) is reasonable.
Wanna complain about retro bolts, just check out the changing corners pitch on the Nose (a route that actually gets aided constantly) REtro bolts just as close to the crack in a place or two
Peace
Karl
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Seeing those bolts right next to a crack with good gear makes me sick. What pitch is it? Is it the stuff above Grey Ledges?
Juan
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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james-
bashing an A1 piton into a flared and shallow crack is good style?
please clarify. and would you go up there and free this line if you knew you needed a hammer to reset critical pins?
an aid climber not expecting to go clean will have a hammer and extra pins ready to go, but not so, generally, for a free climber. on routes that actually get climbed, those placements often evolve to take some pretty good gear, so in a way, a piton is sometimes a temporary and 'necessary' evil.
would you prefer to see a single bolt adjacent to a shallow but climbable crack, or instead have serenity crack up there?
pins were added to snakehike on the 2nd ascent (did roper say he was asked by the FA to add them? i think maybe yes) and if i remember correctly, shapoopi rapped and got the hubers' permission to replace a loosened piton w/ a bolt on one of those EC free routes (GG?), was that poor style? and how is this any different?
the FA gave them their blessing, and mike anderson is not some sport climber you never heard of before.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Justin,
Enough with the top rope rehearsal. Boulder it out man. I'll spot you.
Matt,
If I asked you a hypothetical question regarding an ascent, which neither of us would hypothetically ever do but would love to talk about, would you, hypothetically speaking with special regards to water cooler ethics, give me your hypothetical answer?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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water cooler ethics are the most rigid of all.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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hypothetically speaking, i would prefer to see the piton used, cause then i can say that the shitty fixed gear is the reason i have never climbed that thing, instead of admitting to the crowd at the e-cooler that i don't have the stones for it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Ha,,,caughtinside- that's funny and true.
I was just thinkin' about how many times I've been a little strung out placing marginal clean gear, and sort of reach my personal hairball threshold and gently melted a cozy pin into the crack when I coulda placed another marginal nut. I was up there on the lead, getting scared and the watercooler police weren't around. Ding! Ding! Ding! ahhhh, that's better.....
I'd like to aid Arcturus and gladly clip those awful bolts!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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I've always had the best feelings about those climbers who could do significant things, but still had that knack for flying under the radar. This business of having fixed ropes cluttering up an entire El Cap route seems a bit grandiose. And the aura of secrecy by those "in the know" is just silly.
$0.02.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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"the aura of secrecy by those "in the know" is just silly."
truedat.
and what's more, it's not as if TC is all hush hush about it either. i don't know him at all, and when i happened to run into him i asked him what he was up to and he mentioned it.
seems like fixed lines are part of the game these days. i'd say it's a reasonable approach to fix it in the winter to minimize the inconvenience to others, that's a far cry from fixing the leaning tower or the salathe headwall in prime time.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Yeah, guys that can push to new levels have always been the stuff. I'm lucky to push my own new levels, much less anybody else's. My style has always been to push myself for my own reasons, until I reach the fear to gonads ratio...which is what most of us do, it's just that some have a higher ratio than mine.
B
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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There seems to be a lot of spraying by people who have a stake in the outcomes of their climbs, to the point that it is difficult to know who the "real deals" are. (Not that it really matters, if one climbs for one's own reasons.)
However, when a person who climbs with as much integrity as Tommy apparently does, and takes significant steps to push his own limits with minimal intrusion on the experience of others, we might think about cutting him some slack.
No single individual owns El Cap, but it seems to me if there is a "real deal" who has the perspective to work these incredible free routes, with integrity, Tommy is the man.
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Ω
climber
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Hey Mr Pass the Piton guy,
What is SHAMEFUL is that you have probably damaged and destroyed WAY more rock than all these free climbers you badmouth.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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bump
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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WOULD SOMEONE GIVE THIS GUY A BELAY ALREADY...
Speaking from a Free Climbers prospective I think this is a GREAT DEBATE! I hope it continues in a positive and constructive manner so that as a community we can reach the consensus on what IS and what IS NOT acceptable practice! There has been a similar debate over the eye striking old aid line gone free climb(China Doll) in Boulder Canyon.
The bottom line here is that Free Climbers do not have the right to go slamming bolts in anywhere they please (permanently changing the aid climbing difficulty) on these classic aid routes. JUST AS MUCH; aid climbers should NOT be hammering in pitons on CLASSIC FREE CLIMBS (permanently changing the free climbing difficulty) on routes such as China Doll, Dihedral Wall or Dean Potter's Epitaph on the Tombstone. OR FRANKLY any piece of stone for that matter!
Personally I will ALWAYS prefer a bolt to a piton as it does not change the rock in terms of it's Free Climbing difficulty. Bolts are less permantley damaging, safer/last longer and the minimal damage to the rock can be somewhat restored where as with pitons the damage is ETERNAL. Any PITON HAMMERING aid climber who has such a BIG BEEF with a free climber adding a bolt (were there are only bad piton or copperhead options to protect the free climb) should seriously reconsider his or her reasoning, NO? JUST AS MUCH; the free climber should SERIOUSLY CONSIDER RUNNING IT OUT 40' (if it is safe enough) through that sections rather then add a potentially unnecessary bolt.
I have not been up the Dihedral Wall and did not know that some of these pitches had gone free prior to them being bolted for free climbing purpose! The purist form of climbing is free climbing on all removable protection. This is the future of HARD ROCK CLIMBING! If these pitches on Dihedral Wall DO go FREE on natural gear (somewhat safely) then it is only a matter before it will go free in that style. At this point maybe we come to a general consensus that these bolts should be removed or maybe they should be removed NOW to encourage a free ascent of this style??? If you are a PITON HAMMERING aid climber and not a CLEAN AID ONLY aid climber then you should not be the one up on Dihedral Wall removing the bolts as your HAMMERING is JUST AS DEVASTATING if not MORE DEVASTATING to the condition of the rock and the difficulty or the route (AID or FREE) PERIOD! Aid Climbing does NOT take president over FREE CLIMBING nor does FREE CLIMBING take president over AID CLIMBING they are both valid and equally important forms of climbing. More important is how CLEAN do you AID CLIMB and how CLEAN do you free climb???
FIXED ROPES SUCK!!! On my first trip to Valley last May I was surprised to see fixed ropes on Free Rider from the top of the wall all the way down to the Block. How bad do you think this ruins the experience for a wall climber (aid or free) when they are forced to climb around some FREE CLIMBERS fixed ropes??? REALLY LAME! THIS PRACTICE MUST STOP NOW! Am I right...or NO??? I will say that I did rap in on those ropes and practiced the upper 800' section of the route that day. I will also say that if it were not for those lines I may not have freed the route that next week. Basically as you can see FIXING ROPES ON ANYTHING MORE THEN ON PITCH AT A TIME NOT TO BE LEFT OVERNIGHT; IS CHEATING! Cheating yourself and cheating any other wall climbers that come along out of their PURE EXPERIENCE!
As much as I have been INCREDIBLY INSPIRED by this GUY and would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see him FREE this Mescalito; my first reactions is...I CANNOT SUPPORT the fixed lines! If we give HIM the RIGHT to fix the lines from top to bottom for the potential FFA then we HAVE TO GIVE EVERYONE ELSE that same right, NO? Just because this guy is one of the best free climbers in the world does not mean he is above or better than anybody else. Personally I like him and I don’t think that he thinks that he is better than anybody else. This is why his ropes are up in the MIDDLE OF WINTER!
I am with Tom Evans when he says that "we should give this guy a shot at freeing this route" I for one have to say that I lean towards trusting his judgment as far as the bolting is concerned. Remembering that the future of hard free climbing in Yosemite and elsewhere will be in running it out on removable gear and PROPERLY removing unnecessary bolts on routes that can be adequately protected. PITONS will be a thing of the past as the create to many 5.13 pin scar pitches and there are to many 5.15 climbers ALIVE TODAY. Hopefully this running it out on removable gear/bolt removing tradition does not leak into Limestone sport climbs (at least the bolt removing part) but on granite crack climbs such as China Doll and Dihedral Wall this should be a no brainier. He might be one of the most ethical strong climbers of our time but that does not mean the next guy wont have even better ethics and even stronger and more willing to take the BIG AIR! Remember bro, the worse the gear, the harder the moves, the bigger the air potential...THE PROUDER THE LINE WILL BE! RAISE THE BAR AND SET IT HIGH...just don’t kill yourself doing it dude.
FINAL NOTE: Maybe because this is not a seldom climbed winter aid route the ropes should be allowed to stay up for a certain period of time. Say the month of February or maybe even February and March??? AGAIN the only problem here is if it is OK for this guy fix the ropes...then next year we have to let the ropes go BACK UP for the next guy going for the 2nd ascent, NO? MAYBE because he is BY FAR America's best Big Wall Free Climber attempting something far more difficult then anything EVER FREE CLIMBED IN THE HISTORY OF BIG WALL FREE CLIMBING, maybe he gets special treatment? Like a go team USA kind of deal. Try explaining to the guy who wants to fix ropes on the Dihedral Wall for its 2nd free ascent that "he is just not as important as THIS GUY"!
Maybe you have to rap in with 2-200m lines everyday and just work the route in 600' sections, I don’t know. Would that really be THAT BAD???
BEST OF LUCK TO HIM ON THIS AWESOME FREE CLIMBING EFFORT!!!
SEND IT, SEND IT, SEND IT!!!
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Too many people consider themselves all mightily important and leave fixed lines up routes which definitely detract and sometimes downright get in the way of other ascents. With the increase in "speed climbers" and big wall "free ers" this is only going to get worse.You guys are not that important.
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