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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 19, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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Steve, I know the cave guy knows, I don't think he was asking for HisOwn edification,
-I'm just poking the fire
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 19, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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"Jimmy Dunn and Bridwell are men who came together after that route despite the turf bravado. Bridwell actually came up with the name Cosmos when he offered his heartfelt congrats to Dunn on his solo FA."
Wouldn't it be "big" of Mark and Richard's detractors if they did this? Mark and Richard have extended numerous olive branches which have so far been either not seen, or ignored, or refused. What I know of Richard and Mark is that they are Men Of Integrity, and that they believe in forgiveness and reconiliation. They would be the first to extend their hand in friendship. I believe this is something they desire very much, too.
"It's pretty interesting that those guys dropped a crucial bag containing their only sharpening stones and well over 100 rivets at pitch 5. The decision to keep climbing and not retrieve this stuff was yet another botched decision. As soon as they began conserving rivets, then the batheads went in. The very batheads that apparently stopped Thaw's party. Just plain bad move on an FA, but then they were incompetent when they left the ground. Surely, they could've spared a half day to correct the problem, but no, upward they went, grimly."
Emphatically concur. It was dumbass of them not to go down and retrieve the lost gear, since they had NINE FREAKING ROPES with them! [Sheesh]
However if I had been physically threatened, had my gear been shat upon, had I been bombarded by mud falcons, etc etc etc, I might have been tempted to stay up on the wall. [I have hid from my ex-wife there, it is a good place to hide] I believe they made a decision to maintain their "ground-up alpine-style" ascent no matter what, and think they probably should have gone down and got the stuff they dropped. Batheads are just plain wrong.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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Pete, Richard stated it was 11 ropes; two 9 mm thrown in for spice. Either way, the term good style cannot be applied to WOS as I'll get into in more detail on the Downward Spiral where these posts belong as a matter of record.
It's called capsule style and a far bigger pill than anyone else has ever been willing to swallow in the history of our sport. Period.
Give me an example of any other pair in any other setting so completely encumbered with unnecessary baggage. In fact, the unholy pile, the unworthy preparations, and the dropped stone/rivet bag caused them to fail to achieve their original goal which was an independent line to Thanksgiving. But they fell short.
Richard and Mark could resolve their problems if they were man enough to do so, individually and collectively. But they're not. They've tried everything else....
As my momma said, you can't expect to get what you aren't willing to give out. And that applies to respect in the world of men and climbing.
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 19, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Peter, are you really blind and stupid enough to get behind Fecal Persecution II? The Aquarian back in 1982 was hardly a popular route. The only parties 'racing up the Aquarian' were our very own Jaybro and Watusi to have a look see at the aerial circus going on with Richard and Mark. As Jay and Mike have posted on the original WOS thread back in 2005, they completed at least two wall routes plus a birthday by the time WOS was done!
Unless you're willing to crawl out on a scrawny dead limb for these guys and suggest that these two parties were the perps of Fecal Persecution II, you should really drop that crap accusation. Sure, they dropped debris as was the norm at the time, but I'm very sure none of it was signed or lit on fire and delivered to the WOS crew by anything but the will of the wind.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Jan 19, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
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I must also add that I myself never launched anything at those guys, or would do anything to intentionally harm anyone. No matter how I felt about there style or motives...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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"Richard and Mark could resolve their problems if they were man enough to do so, individually and collectively. But they're not."
I disagree. Everything I know about them tells me they would like to seek resolution and reconciliation. What would you suggest they do? What would be a few good first steps for them to make?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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What I'd like for starters is for the philosopher king to admit for the first time, that he might have done things differently, given another opportunity. Mark has spilled his guts but ole Richard can't do that with respect to the Great Slab of Foolishness and would change nothing about his approach and preparations.
The absurdist notion that being a better climber would somehow have diminished his experience up on WOS is clear testimony of false pride as Matt identified early on.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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I'm with 'tusi, though we were on different ascents.
I came across a mud falcon on a hook traverse on Mescalito, and would not wish that on anyone.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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"Give me an example of any other pair in any other setting so completely encumbered with unnecessary baggage."
Leavitt on Lost in America. "[A] Hedonistic desire to attain usurpassed levels of comfort in an overhanging environment accounted for the overkill wattage of our ghetto blaster, pillows for the portaledges, changes of underwear, shaving kit, and pre-moistened towelettes, books, newspapers, gourmet food, and other excesses totaling 400 pounds."
-Greg Child, Yosemite Big Walls, page 112.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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What sort of unnecessary baggage are you trying to find an owner for here? I don't think Randy had a half-ton Gear Jones going.
Since you backedited: Off by a factor of two and a half. What's your point?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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One of the things my mom used to say all the time. (And which I wish I followed better myself.)
If you don't have something nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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Does that apply to young Rajmit by chance?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 19, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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One of a zillion things that you hope they eventually learn.
:-)
You can lead a horse to water...
One I picked up later...
What would you want people to say about you at your funeral?
(Hint, it has nothing to do with what peaks you bagged, how rich you got, how famous you were, etc.)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 19, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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"The absurdist notion that being a better climber would somehow have diminished his experience up on WOS is clear testimony of false pride as Matt identified early on."
I don't get what you mean, Steve - please explain.
In my previous post, I addressed your comments about Mark and Richard's [alleged by you] unwillingness to seek closure and resolution, and I asked you for specific suggestions as to what you thought might be a good first step for them to make. Can you please offer some suggestions?
As for "taking too much stuff," I take "all the comforts of home" on my wall ascents, and I like to go "big wall camping". I am in no rush, I enjoy being up there because I enjoy being there. I take extra water so I can take a shower. It is, after all, a holiday.
Sure, from their gear list, maybe Mark and Richard took too much stuff, but they didn't really have experience yet. So what? Is taking too much stuff a bad thing, if so, why?
Am I a "bad" climber because I don't climb "light and fast"? Do I give a rat's ass if anyone says I climb too slowly?
Why do I - or anyone else - need anyone's approval for a stylistic [rather than ethical] issue?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
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Try reading my previous posts. Like the one that begins, "What I'd like for starters..."
This is a clearing of history, Pete. Richard and Mark's version of events doesn't exactly jive with their portrayal. Their excess and lack of skill and experience cost them their complete route and left behind a lot of work for the next party.
Go as slow as you want, Pete. I have no problem with it. And take as much crap as you want. Climb in a heavy-handed fashion as you seem to find necessary and advise others to do, and you'll face criticism from me.
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Chewbongka
climber
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Jan 19, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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HEY!
What happened to that group hug?
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 19, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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We can't all be rockstars Grossdude...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 19, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
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It's not at all about that, youth. It's about respect for tradition, the resource/creation, and other climbers enough to properly prepare for and equip a new route on the grandest of stages.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 19, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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Traditionally, climbers since John Gill have used chalk.
Why did he not respect tradition?
Why should we respect his introduction of this foul substance to the cliffs?
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 19, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
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