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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 10, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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Scared Silly,
I haven't read Secret Ceremonies. But I plan to read it---thank you.
Ouch,
The term "Americans at large" was probably a poor choice of words on my part. American Mormons are Americans at large I suppose, but at the time of the Mountain Meadows massacre, Mormons looked upon America as a hostile foreign power.
There is a Christian doctrine that states one must be baptized to gain entry into heaven. Mormons do practice proxy baptisms for the benefit of the deceased who were never baptized while in the flesh. Central to that doctrine is the concept that God accepts proxy baptisms by the living for the dead (who now exist only as a spiritual entity). To be valid the baptism must be accepted by the deceased who retain their free will in the spiritual realm.
(Also, I should mention that dead bodies are NEVER baptized. Some have misunderstood this to mean the immersion of dead bodies. Only proxy baptisms are performed on behalf of the deceased)
Yes, Jewish victims of the Holocaust were given proxy baptisms for a short time. But several Jewish groups appealed to the LDS church to stop including Jewish Halocaust victims in baptisms and the practice was discontinued. At present, most baptisms for the dead are done on behalf of ancestors of Mormons who were never baptised. They aren't baptised INTO the Mormon Church, as such, but their approval of accepting baptism in their name constitutes accepting the gospel of Christ.
Stevep,
No, Krakauers book didn't focus on mainstream Mormons, but his Mormon history (what there was of it) was decidedly slanted and incomplete. I can't agree with the concept that Mormons have not criticized splinter groups sufficiently. There is significant discussion among mainstream Mormons about the problems with fundementalist groups who don't, in fact, practice fundementals. The fact that LDS church headquarters doesnt give weekly negative press releases to counter or criticize "fundementalists" shouldnt be construed to mean it's ignoring or approves of their activities.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Sep 10, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
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Ron-
That was the point.
I am well aware that that I was doing just exactly the opposite of what you were doing (or exactly the same thing you were doing, but in the opposite direction- in your direction), and I am saying that if you'd offered that up at the same time, you'd then have had the opportunity to make your point without appearing as if you were on a mission to tarnish one specific group or tradition, or to provoke/troll, etc.
(really wasn't meant to be complicated pal)
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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Jennie, how can a dead person give permission to be baptized?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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Got it Matt, but why bother to appear reasonable when the very persons you are trying to reach are those most unlikely to perceive it?
If you are forced to wear a mantle then after a while,....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Ouch,
the point is, they can't deny it!
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
one very hot cathode....
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
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Hey...that Baptize the Dead thing just gave me a fantastic idea!!...if one of them Mormsters could just up an' baptize Mohammed, Buddah, maybe a cow and and elephant...and maybe David Koresh....we'd solve most of the major problems in the world!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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"Jennie, how can a dead person give permission to be baptized?"
He can't give permission, et al, directly to those living in the flesh because of the obvious "veil" which separates this existence from his own. But spiritual personages, as individuals exist after death, retain free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ, which in essence is what baptism is about. Mormon doctrine varies from traditional Christian doctrine in that an individual can choose to accept and follow Christ after his earthly sojourn in life, and during his existence in the hereafter. The validity of such baptisms are dependant upon the choice of the spiritual "person" in the hereafter, to accept or reject its implications in accepting Christ.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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At the risk of gettin' some on me...
I haven't read Secret Ceremonies.
I've read it, and, from the outside looking in, was facinating. Fairly well written and a fairly slim book which reads quickly. Got a bit of aclaim because the author gave details of the temple marriage ceremony. Which prompted a couple of us to "discuss" the differences between "secret" and "sacred".
Anyhoo, what I came away with was a woman who ended up in a bad situation with some men who were not great, to be sure. Seemed to plum the stereotypes a bit, and, probably from that angle was a tad unfair on the whole. But, was a fun read.
No, Krakauers book didn't focus on mainstream Mormons
The book tour, including a reading and Q and A following the release of the book was originally scheduled to be held on the U of U campus but moved to the Trolley theaters (major contributor to the U mighta had a problem with Jon at the U?). Was really facinating to listen in as folks asked questions and Jon tried his best to answer them. Part of the put of the book, it seemed to me, and its timely release to coincide with other world events, was that main stream religions need to try to reign in the more extreme factions out there (or some such jist). Rather than just ignore them.
I thought pretty brave of Krakauer to stand up there and take questions from all comers, as long as it took. With some straight edge kids in the crowd (and who knows what other kooks), might have got interesting, but, never did. Folks were pretty mellow and asked some pretty interesting and inciteful questions. Be fun to have a transcript from the evening.
I waited to get my book signed (and a photo from Ham and Eggs coulior on the Mooses Tooth as a bonus!) and was in line behind apparently the feller from BYU who might have written the church position on the book (?). He was wondering out loud if Krakauer was going to sign his book, which, Jon did no problemo, with a smile even.
Pretty fun evening.
Bagley was just at Sander's books last Tuesday to talk about "Blood of the Prophets". Talking with Ken, there's just nothing out there really tying BY to giving the green light for the MMM. Probably never will be.
Crazy stuff...
-Brian in SLC
The Last Words of John D. Lee
Spoken at his execution for the Mountain Meadows Massacre
March 23, 1877
I have but little to say this morning. Of course I feel that I am upon the brink of eternity; and the solemnities of eternity should rest upon my mind at the present. I have made out -- or have endeavored to do so -- a manuscript, abridging the history of my life. This is to be published. In it I have given my views and feelings with regard to these things.
I feel resigned to my fate. I feel as calm as a summer morn, and I have done nothing intentionally wrong. My conscience is clear before God and man. I am ready to meet my Redeemer and those that have gove before me, behind the veil.
I am not an infidel. I have not denied God and his mercies.
I am a strong believer in these things. Most I regret parting with my family; many of them are unprotected and will be left fatherless. When I speak of these things they touch a tender chord within me. I declare my innocence of ever doing anything designedly wrong in all this affair. I used my utmost endeavors to save those people.
I would have given worlds, were they at my command, if I could have averted that calamity, but I could not do it. It went on.
It seems I have to be made a victim -- a victim must be had, and I am the victim. I am sacrificed to satisfy the feelings -- the vindictive feelings, or in other words, am used to gratify parties.
I am ready to die. I trust in God. I have no fear. Death has no terror.
Not a particle of mercy have I asked of the court, the world, or officials to spare my life.
I do not fear death, I shall never go to a worse place than I am now in.
I have said it to my family, and I will say it today, that the Government of the United States sacrifices their best friend. That is saying a great deal, but it is true -- it is so.
I am a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young. I do not care who hears it. It is my last word -- it is so. I believe he is leading the people astray, downward to destruction. But I believe in the gospel that was taught in its purity by Joseph Smith, in former days. I have my reasons for it.
I studied to make this man's will my pleasure for thirty years. See, now, what I have come to this day!
I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner. I cannot help it. It is my last word -- it is so.
Evidence has been brought against me which is as false as the hinges of hell, and this evidence was wanted to sacrifice me. Sacrifice a man that has waited upon them, that has wandered and endured with them in the days of adversity, true from the beginnings of the Church! And I am now singled out and am sacrificed in this manner! What confidence can I have in such a man! I have none, and I don't think my Father in heaven has any.
Still, there are thousands of people in this Church that are honorable and good-hearted friends, and some of whom are near to my heart. There is a kind of living, magnetic influence which has come over the people, and I cannot compare it to anything else than the reptile that enamors its prey, till it captivates it, paralyzes it, and rushes it into the jaws of death. I cannot compare it to anything else. It is so, I know it, I am satisfied of it.
I regret leaving my family; they are near and dear to me. These are things which touch my sympathy, even when I think of those poor orphaned children.
I declare I did nothing designedly wrong in this unfortunate affair. I did everything in my power to save that people, but I am the one that must suffer.
Having said this, I feel resigned. I ask the Lord, my God, if my labors are done, to receive my spirit.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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"Got it Matt, but why bother to appear reasonable when the very persons you are trying to reach are those most unlikely to perceive it? "
there again ron, we disagree on what you are "trying" to do.
(i.e. if you were actually interested in "reaching" anyone, you would have made an effort to appear reasonable...)
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Wow, Jennie -What makes YOU so sure there is even a "hereafter"?
Where does the proof lie?...............what, no response.
I thought so.
Blind Faith is nothing more than just that...
As for my own opinion, I'll just wait and see when the time comes...
Until then, why even share your shaky(at best) notions?
What makes YOU so sure?
No, really.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:29pm PT
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" But spiritual personages, as individuals exist after death, retain free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ, which in essence is what baptism is about. "
How do you communicate with these spiritual personages?
If they have free will, is it assumed they chose to die?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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If anybody Matt it's the moderates across the aisle from me.
I favor mobius type sarcasm which doesn't exempt me or anyone else.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
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My Grandmother got baptized post mortem by her converted widower. To this day i consider it worse than if LDS had pissed on her grave. LDS is the only "religion" I feel fully justified in hating. It is pretty much the only "religion" that I will hold against someone, as it crossed the line by screwing with my family in a pretty personal way.
Catholacism is right in there, but they have done a more general harm to the world as opposed to a personal harm to me and my own.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 10, 2007 - 05:53pm PT
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"Until then, why even share your shaky(at best) notions?
What makes YOU so sure?"
Seamus, I made a statement about Mormon doctrine because I was asked by someone to define the Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead. I was making a statement of what Mormon doctrine is and isn't about. You, and others are completely free to accept or reject that doctrine. I have never started a religious thread here or used this forum as a base for missionary work. But when someone asks a sincere question I will answer it and when I see false doctrine represented as Mormon doctrine I will post to correct it.
Of the few Mormons on this forum I'm probably the "least worthy". But I shared my "shaky notions" because I was asked a question. I'll happily leave you to your doubts with this advice; read the previous posts so you understand the context of the discussion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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Don't pick on Jennie.
I may not agree with her but she's straight up.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
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Before I retired last time, I had under me a very committed atheist, a couple of Mormons, a Jehovah's Witness, some Catholics, and a handful of Very conservative Evangelical types who were the only ones to try to bring religion into discussions. All this mix in a predominately Catholic company.
Somehow it seemed to work.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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Sorry Jennie,
But since I have read every post of this thread, thusfar, the aim of my post was to represent those of us who do not share your self-assured, self righteous indignation regarding religion in general. Not necessarily a poke at Mormonism per se, just a poke at all religions, yours included.
Sorry if I offended you.
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TwistedCrank
climber
The banks of reality
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:25pm PT
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Is there a piece of paper or a web page where I can sign up to not be posthumously baptized?
That kind of freaks me out. They might find out some of my secrets.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
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Seamus,
I'm apologize if I came across as self righteous. I was attempting to state what Mormon doctrine is. If my words came across as aloof and condescending and offended some, Ill attempt a more succinct approach in the future. Bearing testimony of why I, personally believe is probably inappropriate on this thread. But I don't believe answering doctrinal questions that are posed by sincere individuals is inappropriate.
I don't consider myself better or more favored by God than anyone else here. But my language fails me at times. Perhaps I do come across as condescending
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 10, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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I'm just thinking about what it must be like to be a Jewish Gentile in Utah.
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