Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
|
|
"You do participate in the discussion not just post off topic doctored photos and non germane C&P jobs."
Come on TGT, all these threads about Iraq, Islam and the like are just one big troll-flame-fest.
It's all been hashed and re-hashed, over and over.
If you think anything new will come of these threads you are truly insane. Performing the same exact thing over and over in hopes of a different result.
You fatty and bluering are basically in one frame of mind and just about everyone else is in another.
Has much changed in 3 years? no.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Nobody is going to change anyones mind or expects that.
Some of us are here for a grown up debate.
Some are like the little kid in the room that keeps interupting inscessantly.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
as i posted here years ago-
we could have simply given SH half a billion dollars to leave peacefully and set him up in uruguay or panama (someplace he'd be harmless), then offered 10K to every single iraqi national (how long does it take them to earn that much dough?), paid out in annual increments with the pre-condition that they live together in peace.
now THAT might have transformed the middle east...
but i guess that would have been "whacky" too.
especially this was all going to take just "six days or six weeks, i doubt six months".
|
|
UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
|
|
TGT,
You are soooo right. I've been accused and guilty many times. Why? Because the discussion devolves into the tail chasing, inbred, complete lack of logic crap session which makes me want to illustrate how lame the whole discussion is by posting lame crap as well (just a little more over the top than most).
What blows me away is that many people can't see this, even when I explain my intent to them.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
TGT, blueguy, fattrad, woody, chaz, all-a-ya'll rah-rah types out there- especially those of you who claim to be interested in an *informed debate*- i DARE you to go see this flick:
http://www.noendinsightmovie.com/
edit-
this movie is PACKED full of reports from people who know EXACTLY what they are talking about, but YOU would rather seek your info elsewhere, simply because you don't want to hear what they (people who criticize this so-called "war") have to say.
boosting the #s of our troops to an unsustainable level for the last year or 2 of the tenure of buschco will do more to tie the hands of the next administration that it will to make any long term difference in iraq or elsewhere, and we are no safer today then we were on 9/12.
those are the facts on the ground, like it or not, so thanks, but i don't need a raw sounding green beret type to make me feel rough and rugged and manly, i'd much rather see us all bite the bullet now and see this war for the huge mistake it was and is, and find the least painful way out of it, than see us perpetuate it and continue down the same ill-advised path, following in the defeated footsteps of the british and the soviets.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
bump
well...?
isn't anyone gonna come back and explain to the rest of us how our paltry 150-180k troops are going to quell the shia/suni violence in the entire region? (despite the well publicized fact that even the 'green zone' is now more of a yellowish/orange, w/ flak jackets required and regular mortar attacks that are generally not responded to because the surrounding areas are not themselves secure).
no, of course you are not.
and that's what it would take to fix iraq now!
neither side will settle for the middle ground, if ever there was any to be had in the 1st place.
perhaps someone will point out all the "success" that is being reported by the military in areas that suround bagdad (though not in the city itself), if so, please explain how these "successes" are going to magically be different than any oof our previous "successes", in which we focused on one area, only to see the 'terrorists' spring up elsewhere (this has been, by far, the most regular theme of the occupation).
and the surge?
sure you can stick an extra 20-40K troops there, and then point to the tasks they can accomplish (duh, how can 20-40k troops not accomplish anything?), and then you are set up nicely to paint anyone who opposes the war as anti-army, anti-soldier, anti-patriotic, etc., but the fact remains that we have not and we will not change anything there, and as soon as we do leave (or are forced to leave by the evolving tactics of those who want us to leave, who dramatically outnumber those who want us to stay), the whole place will go to hell anyway, as the inevitable power struggle ensues.
i don't see how any other argument is any different than what they told us on the front end of all of this- that we could transform iraq- but now they just wrap it up all fancy and call it something new.
so to any argument you make below, please go ahead and answer in advance the obvious rebuttal, that whatever you are expecting to see improve w/ the escallation (i.e. 'surge', in bushspeak), is itself as temporary and unsustainable as the escallation itself, and for every bad guy we kill there are born 2 more who now hate us with a passion...
(and by the way the above rebuttal, while extremely simple and less than optimistic, is fundamental to uderstanding why past occupations of arab states have ALWAYS failed, eventually, just as this one will- "those who are ignorant of history are destined to repeat it")
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
A blog from the sandbox
Democracy in Iraq
Aug 10, 2007
I want to bring your attention to something remarkable that General Bergner said in this week's roundtable with him (transcript here). The whole thing is worth reading, and touches on military operations, Iran, and numerous other topics. What I asked him about, however, was reconciliation. We know from Dr. Kilcullen and others that the Surge is mainly a military plan to buy space for political progress. It's been noted that the Iraqi central government has been on vacation, and we've talked about whether that is a sign of no progress, or a necessary space for some backchannel arguments. What signs of progress, I asked, has General Bergner seen?
GEN. BERGNER: Well, we have seen steady developments at the local level. And if you just went back over the last four weeks and kind of walked around west and northern areas of Baghdad, you would find that in Ramadi, they completed the Ramadi Covenant, which was a tribal-led but government-of-Iraq-involved and coalition -- or security-force-involved commitment to stop the violence and to work together. In Taji, about three weeks ago the sheikhs of Taji got together. They all signed a map, put their name next to the town that they represent. In Khalis, northwest of Baghdad, a similar commitment, I think by some 16 sheikhs representing 70-some others. And then in Baqubah, we've talked before about the tribal sheikhs and the provincial government and their security forces having reached some agreements on how they're going to work together and stop the violence.
So I could take you through Baghdad, as well. We've seen similar -- similar arrangements being grouped together in Amiriyah. We see similar ones in Ghazalia. The Ghazalia volunteers are now part of this local security force that's working with Iraqi and coalition forces. And then if I took you to south of Baghdad, in General Rick Lynch's area of operations in MND-Center, I could show you different groupings of 100 here, 400 there, where different individuals from the community have stepped forward and said, we want to stop help the violence, we want to work toward some sort of accommodation.
So there is a steady development at the local level as security improves and people feel like they can step forward and take that on. So we are encouraged by that. And you know overall in Anbar what that -- how that has profoundly changed. We've talked about that several times. And that's probably the most striking example of a place which just eight or 10 months ago nobody could have foreseen the change there. So, lots of momentum.
Much of it is enabled by the tactical momentum that the surge of operations is providing. But again, much work still to do. Still some very difficult ways ahead.
GRIM: I'd like to ask a quick follow-up about that. Under Saddam and, you know, for what amounts to living memory in Iraq, Iraq has been kind of a top-down society where the central government set the tone. What you're talking about is a lot of local efforts that are going to be kind of brought to bear -- I don't want to say against central government, but on the central government. Do you think that the nature of Iraqi society is changing in this regard, that it's becoming more of a bottom-up society, a locally driven society?
GEN. BERGNER: You know, that's a very good question, it's an interesting one, because on one level, it has been a centrally governed country, without question, but in this country the tribe, the family have always been the most powerful bond that the Iraqi people have felt. And so you have kind of a duality of centrally directed but, if you ask the people who they trust and who they want to work with, it's at the family, tribal and community level. So both of those exist and both of them are very real parts of the nature of Iraqi society.
What I hope you got a sense of in my initial comments was both of those are working, and if you looked at Baqubah as a pretty vivid example, that's a place where the local tribes and security forces are coming to these kinds of arrangements. And once they've gotten to that point, the Iraqi government, the central government, is coming in to connect and figure out so how do we provide this public distribution support that you need, because, as you said, that is a centrally directed food distribution program; how do we help improve the availability of fuel, because, as you said, that is a centrally controlled fuel distribution system still. So both of those are at work here, and that's really why it's so important to get them connected because you really need -- you need that confidence at the local level being reinforced and supported. They need to know their central government is going to actually do something for them.
What the general points to here are local, often tribal attempts to urge the central government in the direction of reconciliation, and to commit to reconciliation in their own areas. This is what we would call a grassroots movement, if we saw it in America. Such movements, properly organized, can become powerful even against entrenched interests willing to use violence against them -- we can look at the start of unions in America, for example.
If that proves to be the case, a grassroots movement of this type would provide very strong and stable foundation for a national political reconciliation. It is, obviously, too soon to assert that is what will happen; but it is soon enough to notice that there is movement in that direction, in many areas across Iraq.
Things are changing in Iraq. We're seeing the first waves of the gravity well we're building there, a well whose pull extends far beyond the borders of Iraq itself. It's already strong enough to begin to exert its pull on the United Nations, which is suddenly willing to hedge its bets on success; and Sens. Durbin and Levin, who want to hedge theirs. I'll say they are all welcome to do so. If we can ask political reconciliation of the Iraqis, we can ask it of ourselves. Anyone who wants to join us now in trying to help build success in Iraq, and stand against those who fight by murder and war crimes, is welcome aboard. I don't care why they come, what their motives are, so long as they are willing to join the fight.
What we are seeing out of the Surge is a hint that success is possible -- including the least likely form of success, the kind many even on the right wrote off: a democratic sea change in Iraqi society. Watching the local communities and tribes start to bring about the reality they want, leading rather than following the central government, is inspiring.
I hope it is not intoxicating. I'm aware of my own biases, that I strongly desire to see the Iraqis pass through the fire to find a new hope and better life. It's important to remember that these are early indications, reasons to hope and things to watch. But they are there, all the same.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
man, how do i respond to that, ok i admit i am a peace loving skeptic, but all i hear there is pure propoganda!
these guys are experts at propoganda, every general that has ever said anything that went against the grain has been axed, retired, reassigned, removed, or (insert term here).
so now you have some blogger who was in special forces who is interviewing generals?
does it occur to you that the pentagon is interested in public opinion?
does it occur to you that the press, and "right wing media outlets" in particular were a primary vehicle in selling the war effort to the american public in the 1st place?
does it occur to you that the time period BEFORE the september report is CRITICAL to the level of acceptance of that report, and thus to whether or not the war is continued, same old same old, or whether the american people are heard and there is a dramatic shift in strategy?
does it occur to you that editorial comments/ propoganda/ "good news"/ success stories *just like these* are a staple of every government's war effort?
ad does it occur to you that the government has lied to you and to me and to all of us, right and left, at every turn, from the get go (i.e. the days of inevitable nook-ya-leer disaster and WMDs which we knew where to find but wouldn't tell the UN inspectors?
you kill me.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
some of the comments on the site from the original post:
Michael: You are a true Patriot! So many of us who support the mission thirst for the truth.
Grady Says:
My dad was disabled in a meaningless war.
The VA didn’t take care of him
He is dead.
He died despising the Army.
Neither I or my sons will be sacrificed to government lies.
The incompetent admainstratin of the Iraq war has exposed us to even more danger.
There are many who are not with you.
greg faughnan Says:
Thank you for your work and thanks to Fox News for carrying it. I check Fox regularly so I look forward to reading more of your posts. Good luck and God bless. Greg Faughnan.
John Morgan Says:
Michael-Keep up the good work. I am sick and tired of seeing the same leftwing reporters doing their nightly propaganda from the Green Zone. Your reports are a breath of fresh air. There are plenty of Americans like me back in the states. We believe in what our guys are doing over there. I believe that many reporters and politicians have invested their careers in the premise that defeat in Iraq is a certainty. That is why there is the all this talk of pullouts and war funding cutoffs. It is certainly ironic that in a sense these reporters and politicians are on the same side as the terrorists. The only real difference is the methods used to attain that goal.
Randy DeMaat Says:
Michael, thanks for your reporting. I just read for the first time one of your articles off the the FoxNews website. I visited yours as well. Very nice. Thanks. Tell me if you think I’m over-reacting by never watching or reading any other news besides Fox. I just cant stand the omnipresent politcal motivation that they all seem to have. I am so sick of the ‘lets get out’ people. Ask them this: what were we doing on September 10 that deserved September 11. Do they not understand that leaving before a democracy is established will only strengthy the terrorist resolve to repeat and surpass 9/11? Hell, they probably will anyway but to leave before the job is done is exactly what the terrorist want. I believe this is at least a 1 generation war. To overcome generations of terrorist thinking is going to take a while. And not just in Iraq. Well I could go on but wont. Again, thanks for reporting the truth as best you can and I look forward to reading more
(plus various "thank you" posts)
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2007 - 10:33am PT
|
even though I find your arguments hoplessly unrealistic in some respects.
Unrealistic, eh. In what way TGT?
I am optimistic that peace can work and is a better way than war. Jaw Jaw over War War. Given the chance.
I am realistic about the fact that this Bush administration messed up big time in Iraq, and probably will with Iran. That Bush, Cheney and Co willingly and knowingly lied to the American public, the people they are suppose to be SERVING, to suit their own agenda.
I am realistic, having worked with a number of people of the Islamic faith, that most, certainly in England where I have worked with many of them, are moderates, and are not the fundamentalist Islamofacist nutjobs that some people would have us think.
I am realistic that most of our troops would rather be safe at home instead of where they are now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course there will be those gung ho types that like to be there.
I am realistic that this administration is not doing enough to ensure that those troops are provided with the best gear and equipment, that those who are maimed are not being treated well enough back in the States, that basically Bush and Co don’t give a sh*t about them.
And I am very realistic that Bush, Cheney and their cronies are full of SH*T.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
|
couple of well paced suicide bombs and the UN will turn out to (again) be on a short visit
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 01:37pm PT
|
Interesting read Crowley, but is everything a conspiracy? He puts forth theories as to how the U.S. or Iraqi Govt could have been responsible but completely dismisses the obvious possibility that terrorists did it. Terrorists have never stolen military uniforms and posed as govt soldiers have they?
Why would the U.S. want to start a sectarian conflict? To justify staying longer? I don't buy it.
Also does this guy in the article have any credible evidence to back his theories. No. He just theorizes and stirs up a conspiracy. I wonder if he has an agenda. Probably, he thinks everybody else does. Maybe CNN and the Pentagon colluded together to deceive the American people and start a full-blown civil war. Ooh, wouldn't that be a juicy story.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
|
Maybe he's just a smart boy, Crowley.
Matt probably nailed it on the head though, in reality.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
|
That's a fact, huh? I forgot you had all the facts and I just spew lies, hate, and utter nonsense. Sorry, I'll try to pay better attention to you links in the future.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
|
I told you what I thought about it. I was just curious what a self-proclaimed neocon thought about it. I'd imagine he'd support it, and I'd be curious to know why.
As I also said, everyone I hear from doesn't like it (outside the govt.) so it must suck. That includes libs and conservatives. The only people who seem to like it are Dems and Repubs in govt who, no doubt, stand to get great kickbacks from it.
What's to like about it? What else do I need to know?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 06:25pm PT
|
"It is amazing how we all see what we want to see... until we are ready to open our eyes to other possibilities. Violence and aggression cause the eyes to swell shut. Open discussions and transparency only lead to better vision."
Sounds really noble and Karl-like but unfortunately it doesn't always work that way in the real world.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
|
since this had descended into partisan bickering anyway-
i would have much more respect for any so-called conservative who was outraged by the many illegal, shameful, and unpatriotic actions of so many in the bush administration (gonzalez, cheney, libby, et al), but instead they show their true allegiance, to their party rather than to their country.
if a democrat were exposed as having outed a WMD non-proliferation expert who was (or even who was not!) covert (and plame was covert), the dems would have kicked that person out of their party, rather than try to lay it off as "business as usual in washington".
that is simply a disgrace to the country, to all of us, and in a time of war no less.
funny how the other transgressions of bushco seem to make that seem almost insignificant!
oh how i long for the days of young fat chicks being seduced by powerful men, rather than the current gannon-gate era of young boys being seduced by powerful men (who happen to oppose gay rights!).
this country is a complete sh#t show, our breif little 230 yr old experiment in democracy is openly being sold out to corporate interests and the politically powerful, and when anyone stands up to complain about it, they are shouted down as unpatriotic, both by those who benefit from the status quo, and by those who suffer from it...
how incredibly lame of so many of my fellow americans (and you know full well if i am talking to you!) who buy into that crap.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2007 - 08:12pm PT
|
A report from Iraq
From an Iraqi
Saturday, August 11, 2007
Talking to Iraq's Neighbors
I think it's a good time to make a preliminary assessment of the results of reaching out and talking to Iraq's neighbors in reducing violence in the country.
So, was it a bad suggestion to talk to them?
Not completely bad, and not completely good either, pretty much like any suggestion when the situation in question is as complex as Iraq's.
The results with Iran have been so poor so far, in fact the Iranian involvement in violence has increased as statistics tell us—the American commanders here said that attacks on coalition forces by Shia militias linked to Iran represented 75 percent of total attacks in July.
Although it's still unclear whether this rise was a result of more attacks by militias or of fewer attacks by other insurgents the overall outcome is that for some reason dialogue either failed to encourage a change in Iran's policy toward Iraq or even worse giving opposite results.
On the other hand we have Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. Although Arabia was recently criticized by ambassador Khallilzad for not doing enough there are reasons to think that the three countries have to some extent contributed to the change in attitude among Sunni Arab tribes in Anbar; an effect that is slowly spreading to other regions around Baghdad, i.e. the Baghdad belts.
It is true that seeds for the awakening movement in Anbar were planted prior to the Iraq Study Group recommendations-perhaps some of you remember sheik Jad'aan and his fighters from last year-but it would be rather naïve to think that the movement gained all the sudden momentum we saw from a local initiative by some good sheiks.
In my opinion the Arab countries I mentioned have redirected much of the support they had been giving al-Qaeda and its allied tribes to the awakening sheiks and their fighters. And why wouldn't Arab countries do this!?
First Arab countries fear that Iran would control much of Iraq and they have come to realize that the only way to prevent this from happening is by allowing Iraq to become a stable state with which they can build good relations. Second their relations with America are already much better than Iran's which is seen as a common threat to them and to Iraq's stability. Add this to recent pledges with military aid in the billions and-I assume-guarantees that democracy in Iraq is not going to be a threat to their interests and we have a good package of incentives and disincentives.
This must have convinced them that they will lose if they keep putting their money on the insurgency as a way to stop the Iranian expansion.
This doesn't mean Saudi Arabia is doing all they can. After all it's the ideology they teach in their schools and mosques that keeps breeding terrorism and until they do something about that Saudi Arabia will always be responsible for creating new generations of terrorists who could strike in Iraq and elsewhere.
Then there's Syria which I'm going to leave aside right now since apparently there has been no change in its attitude in either direction. And we still haven't heard enough about meetings between American and Syrian officials, that's if there were any. Speaking of that I think the public in Iraq and America deserve to know more about what happened during previous meetings with Iran and Arab countries—I don't know about the media in America but I know our media here is not telling us any reliable information in this respect.
The question is what can be done in order to make talking to Iran at least as fruitful as talking to the Arab countries?
I don’t have an answer for this one and it looks to me that making progress on both fronts through diplomatic means is very difficult. This is because on one hand we have a group of Arab regimes whose core concern is the preservation of their regimes and whenever possible to slow down political and social reforms in their countries for as long as possible or at least make reforms a less dramatic process. These are things that America can, more or less, reassure them about since the idea of spreading democracy in the region is an America project in the first place.
But on the other hand there is a revolutionary regime whose ambitions go beyond preserving the regime to dominating the Middle East to which the road passes through Baghdad and Basra.
Today Rafsanjani complained that America was not sending "good signals" and I wonder what sort of good signals could satisfy the Mullahs; removing sanctions, allowing them to act as they please in Iraq, or maybe letting them continue their nuclear project?
My conclusion is that a diplomatic solution with Iran in the foreseeable future is very unlikely, unless the Iranians change their regime from within.
Therefore the only way I see to neutralizing Iran's interference would be to keep building the Iraqi state until it's strong enough to deal with this interference and meanwhile military operations should continue to eliminate Iran's surrogates and secure the border. This will ultimately weaken the power of their political wing as well.
Maybe this doesn’t look like a very good plan but it's better than a direct military confrontation with Iran and let's not forget that the change in power-balance on the ground could change the outcome of future negotiations, on the long run.
Posted by Omar @ 00:35
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
|
What follows is text from an unedited email written to friends from a friend of mine sent back from Iraq. Yes it is from 2004, but I imagine it is still like this. Norm is a civilian employee who works for the Corps of Engineers; he volunteered to assist with rebuilding, infrastructure assessment, etc. Virtually everybody likes Norm. Lets hear a real report from an American on scene in Baghdad on his incident:
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 6:30 AM
Subject: Your Prayers Worked!
Just wanted you to know from the horses mouth.....
...........I'm okay, we're all okay..
A few hours ago we were ambushed.
We were in a 3 vehicle convoy, 2 SUV's and a Hummer.
I was lead driver, Major Ward armed with a pistol, was the shooter, our
passenger was a civilian, Gail. She's an employee working for the Army's
Combat Camera unit.
Jeff Qunell was driving the number 2 vehicle with a Gurka Guard armed
with an Ak-47.
The Hummer had 2 MP's armed with automatic weapons.
The traffic was rerouted with barriers causing traffic jam. A large car
hauling truck was parked on the side of the road further creating a
pinch point. A car brushed our bumper, typical trap,we didn't stop and
get out.
50 feet ahead the 2 lane highway was detoured up a sinle lane side
street. We were stopped and trying to push thru the traffic on the right
to go out in a field and drive around the jam.
The next thing I know I'm hit in the back of the head. Luckily my
borrowed vest had a collar on it that stopped the bullet after it went
through the headrest. It threw my head forward. I grabbed the back of my
head, thinking I would bleed out if I didn't. Bullets started flying,
the major yelled "go, go, go"......we jumped the curb and merdian in our
Suburban, while honking at pedistrians and cars in our way. We drove
down the sidewalk, with the pedal floored. Launched back into the street
with the convoy following. We blasted thru traffic with horn honking,
swerving thru traffic to get away. It was no holds barred driving, a
couple of cars may have gotten slightly redirected with a little help.
The major had his pistol out waving traffic away as we plowed through
some traffic jams. We were stuck at a dead stop, bad situation. During
the lull, Gail was going to check the back of my head, when she felt
blood on her back.
The major checked her out and could tell she had been shot also, we
weren't sure how bad. But it was in the back so we were speeding the
medics at the airport, D-rear. We were almost there when we saw a
military convoy going the other direction, we changed direction, waved
the gun, burned rumber thru traffic, at times in the oncoming lane with
the lights on and horn on constantly. We were appraoching another known
pinch point, a narrrow bridge incidents have occurred. We made it to
some open open road, hit about 165 kilometers per hour and caught up
with the convoy. Followed them til we got close to the base, then we
passsed them and zoomed into the medics.
The major had a scratch on his cheek, probably a bullet grazed by his
head. But it may have been chrapnel, from one of the many bullets that
hit around his head area. Gail's back wound was stopped by a vest. She
had 2 bullet holes in her jacket, the other one we think was chrapnel.
They medivaced her out with a helicopter to check for any metal
fragments.
The collar on the vest I borrowed looked like it was blown up. The
bullet was found on the floor board with the vest material intwined with
the metal. A sharp piece of metal found in the collar, scratched my next
slightly. At least nine shots hit the vehicle, we're going to inspect in
more detail later. But every headrest where people were sitting had a
bullet hole. My laundry bag and backpack took hits as well.
Jeff was driving the second vehicle, his Pajero SUV was hit three times.
They went for his front wheel and driver door.
The military vehicle didn't know hear much or see anything so they
didn't fire a shot and apparently didn't get shot at.
The major and the Gurka (from Nepal) Guard shot a few shots but no
specific target.
We had bullet holes all around mine and Steves head, we were lucky.
Gail was hit but several bullets were deflected or stopped. We found one
in and MRE on the floor.
The Group Prayer we did as a team before we left in conjunction with the
prayers that you two both mentioned in your last messages...
have been saying....were answered. Someone was definitely listening.
I'll write more later, but I just wanted you to have the facts.
The fact is we are all okay.......and I think the Corps will be better
for it. I suspect our voice will be heard. Some lessons are learned the
hard way.
It doesn't get any closer, thanks for your prayers.
You know it takes more that to kill a stubborn Norwegian.
Love you both for your support, as usual.
I don't think my mother needs to hear about this yet.
I'll try and call you both, our phones aren't working too well at the
moment. I'll also try and call my family.
Take Care and Not to Worry, we'll be doing work on base for awhile.
Our leased vehicles will be taken away tomorrow.
The Colonel is still in Baghdad with our guards taking care of
arrangements for the guard that got killed. The other guard had massive
face surgery but will survive.
Please don't worry, everything will be done with extra care from now til
we leave.
Still Stormin'......Norman
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!