Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2004 - 01:03pm PT
|
>In my opinion, that gentelman who through out "would you
>turn in someone camping in C4 illegaly, or smoking a
>joint" etc....is trying to change the subject and steer
>the discourse away from the topic at hand.
I disagree to some extent. I think it all depends on your view of that guys use of the drill in the wilderness. From what I can see, there are two ways to look at this (and probably more):
1) Power drills should not be allowed in the wilderness because of the damage (bolts) they wreak. Sort of an ethical viewpoint to some extent. You like the law because it helps the wilderness in the form of limiting the number of bolts (only because it takes more work to put one in).
2) Climbers should roast in hell for using a power drill in the wilderness because they give the rest of us a big black eye in the view of the land managers when they blatently ignore the law and do what they want.
The guy you say is steering the discussion away from the topic at hand is simply taking viewpoint (2) above rather than your view of (1). Both are probably valid ways to look at this and discuss it.
I liked that guys reply because it really makes you think about it in light of the "black eye" issues with respect to the land managers. I think that's a valid point of discussion with respect to this issue even though you wanted to to soley deal with anti-power in wilderness.
I'm not a proponent of using power drills in wilderness. I just thought it was interesting to discuss how this related to other illegal things that climbers do (out of bounds camping, pot, etc.).
In the end, we all decide what we're for and what we're against and I think that's pretty selective at times. Part of being free, I guess.
|
|
Flash
Ice climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2004 - 01:08pm PT
|
"If you are drilling in the Wilderness with a Bulldog then you are most definately a piece of sh#t."
Agreed! If you are not using an Annhiliator you are a loser!
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2004 - 01:19pm PT
|
Keep in mind steelmonkey...
...that this guy we are talking about is also one of the founders of the new Washington Climbers Coalition. A group set up to be a voice for climbers when dealing with Land Management/climber access issues.
If it is the philosophy of the leaders of this group to build beneficial relationships with land managers by hiding the known facts about illegeal climber activity...then I definately have a problem with that.
It is my belief, although not proven...only speculation, that more then one of the founders of this group have a history of drilling illegaly in designated Wilderness. Which is why I believe the gentelman we are talking about wishes to steer the conversation away from the bottom line. I know for a fact that he is upset I even bought it up in the first place.
whatever
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2004 - 01:27pm PT
|
by the way....
not trying to talk smack beind this guys back about him or their group. Just bringing you into the context of the discussion on cc.com
this guy has definatley put in years worth of work to open up access and develop routes in Washington, whether with or power drill or not, and I can give him respect for that.
|
|
Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 09:47am PT
|
I witnessed power drilling on a certain New High Sierra Test-piece on the Incredible Hulk this summer, and I didn't turn anyone in.
However, I do think climbers who do this put everyone's access at risk. We all need to condemn this activity, before Something Real Bad happens. Power drilling in wilderness must be shunned as even worse than chipping or gluing.
What's at risk is our use of ANY AND ALL fixed anchors in wilderness. Never mind power drilling, we're talking hand-placed bolts, fixed pins, fixed nuts, even slings on trees.
"The Access Fund recognizes that bolt safety anchors have been used as climbing protection for over sixty years, and believes that bolts should generally be allowed where climbing is permitted. However, the Access Fund recognizes that the use of bolts may impact the natural resource. Collectively such impacts may have a significant effect on natural or social values. For this reason the Access Fund strongly encourages climbers to place bolts legally, discretely, and in a manner appropriate to local climbing tradition."
"Climbers involved in the placement or removal of fixed anchors have a responsibility to be aware of the implications of their actions on climbing access...."
"The Access Fund believes climbers should address differences of opinion about where and to what extent bolts should be placed among themselves, rather than encouraging or expecting land managers or politicians to resolve those differences through law or public policy."
Position on Irresponsible Climbing, 2001
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 10:17am PT
|
The government’s methodology here is also very effective with children. Got a group of kids in the backyard playing with various rusted shards of metal & broken glass, which is fine & good, as long as they don’t make any noise.
“If I hear so much as one peep from any of you, I don’t care who it is, I’m taking all of your toys away!”
Works great as it forces the kids to police themselves. Now you don’t have to deal with the little bastards; they’ll just sit in the backyard quietly playing with their bits & bobs.
I understand the need to ‘regulate’ things in this life, and set boundaries, but seems as though “the man” has got a lot of climbers shitting their pants for the fear that we’ll be banned from our public lands, for which we pay, and in a lot of instances, for which we are the only users.
A bit disturbing…
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 10:26am PT
|
There are two reasons to bbe opposed to Wilderness power Drilling, pick one or both:
-you fear "the man"
-you believe in Wilderness ethics
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 10:29am PT
|
Not to nitpick, but define “wilderness ethics” as it applies here. (I’m being serious).
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 10:59am PT
|
simple- motorized equipment does not belong in designated Wilderness
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:20am PT
|
Look. Most of us here appreciate the fact that there are places one can visit where the tyranny of industrial civilisation has little hold. None of us live there. This is also the point: wilderness is to be visited, not lived in, and otherwise left alone.
Part of this deal, which is a good one for all- humans, animals, wild ecosystems, the atmosphere-- is that motorized activity is prohibited. No exceptions. USFS trail crews work with hand tools in wilderness areas, even when using chainsaws would be much much faster. This keeps the pervasive influence of the brainy, tool-using primate at a minimum.
To chip away at the provisions of the Wilderness Act for self-serving reasons (and what, really, is more selfish than climbing?) is, firstly, to diminish the whole idea of wild places. Secondly, it places people, and climbers, over the edge of that famous slippery slope past which we may as well sanction all manner of destructive industrial activities on lands we claim to have held sacrosanct. It is to say that I, the climber, am more important than 4 billion years of natural history, and democratic consensus be damned. Furthermore, it takes advantage of the pristinity preserved by the Wilderness Act in order to exploit it for personal use: after all, if everone else had been ignoring wilderness rules, that crag might have been blown up and paved over long ago.
Before you all pile on, let me explain where I have acted in this regard. I have used power drills, and I have bolted on rappel. Neither of these occurred in designated wilderness. On more than one instance I have found nice crags in wildernesss areas and drilled 3/8" bolts by hand because I believed both that people would want to climb there and that I would not be the one to chisel away at the provisions of a vital and visionary act of democracy.
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:21am PT
|
OK, so maybe I will nitpick a bit. I’m not familiar with the wording of the law. Does it actually provide separate provisions for motorized equipment (i.e. a battery operated hammer drill) vs. equipment which operates via an internal-combustion engine (i.e. motor bike, power boat, etc…)?
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:25am PT
|
Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=legisact
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:28am PT
|
Thanks,
but doesn't a bolt contradict "and no structure or installation within any such area." ?
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:32am PT
|
techinacly yeah, which is why they moved to ban all fixed anchors from wildeness areas a little while back. Don't you remmeber that? or were you not climbing yet?
I'm not against a fixed sling or pin or hand drilled bolt here and there...
But opening up Wilderness to power bolting opens the potential for thousands and thousands of bolts all over otherwise blank faces in the Wilderness. I suppose some people would view this as a good thing....not me.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:35am PT
|
Re:"Rhodo-Router, you seem to take issue with the fact that the bolt is there at all more-so than with the method by which it was placed."
Not really. You'll note that I have drilled in wilderness. I just think that the hand-drilling rule is a fortuitously healthy distinction. Limiting bolting to this method limits the number of bolts to the ones that somebody really badly wants to see there. As it happens, this seems to conflict with the instant-gratification mentality typified by sport climbing.
I think bolts have their place in climbing, and that placing them by hand only in wilderness area is a good compromise: it ensures that climbers can travel up and down in rad places, while generally preventing the sort of trampling and crowding that follows the drill to places where bolts have been placed more for convenience than necessity. (Much like what Lambone just said)
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:43am PT
|
About "installations":
Color me selfish, but I like certain installations, like the kind that let me descend without downleading every pitch. I also like bridges across raging meltwater creeks and soggy wetlands, kiosks that remind you of where you are and how to respect it, and summit registers that tell you which of your friends and kindred spirits have preceded you.
So there are exceptions. My partner last fall sure liked the helicopter that plucked him off of Half Dome, although I thought the level of response was disproportional to the severity of his injury (fractured/dislocated ankle).
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:49am PT
|
“techinacly yeah, which is why they moved to ban all fixed anchors from wildeness areas a little while back. Don't you remmeber that? or were you not climbing yet?”
Ouch Lambone, fired a shot across my bow.
Well, been climbing for 10+ years, but my only real involvement in the climbing “community” has been limited to the two or so years since I’ve been on this forum, and even that’s been spotty. I barely even know any other climbers. So to answer your question, yes I’ve heard talk of “proposed ban on fixed anchors” plenty of times, I’ve just never jumped in the fray. Not really taking a stance on any of this, just trying to educate myself a bit on the subject.
|
|
Flash
Ice climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:51am PT
|
"I witnessed power drilling on a certain New High Sierra Test-piece on the Incredible Hulk this summer, and I didn't turn anyone in."
From Supertopo's front page:
"New High Sierra Test-piece on the
Incredible Hulk from Croft and Nettle"
No, you don't rat on people at all, do you?
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Behind a shrub
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2004 - 11:51am PT
|
Re:"Rhodo-Router, you seem to take issue with the fact that the bolt is there at all more-so than with the method by which it was placed."
Wasn't sure if anyone even read that. I re-read your post after posting my response and promptly deleted it as I realized my comment was a bit off par.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Sep 25, 2004 - 11:13am PT
|
Dingus--
I kind of agree about so-called wilderness areas that are in fact trashed-out industrial wasteland-- there's a lot of that here in CO. Sometimes my own judgment is my guide, not lines on a map.
Nonetheless, I spend a fair amount of energy fighting for wilderness protection in places like southern Utah, and I couldn't do that in good conscience if I myself was ignoring the law. Hypocrisy I don't need.
And turning in friends? Mostly I just try to talk 'em out of it. It hasn't come up much.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!