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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Jun 13, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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If you are going to drive 700 miles a week, either civic, corolla, or toyota truck with 4 cyl.
4 Cyl Toyota truck can do miles like no other cars. I seen them do 100K miles per year without any problem. I Serviced a huge fleet of them and they used to put 300k-500k in 4 years.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 13, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
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Wild Bill, et al.
The diesel is good for the environment because it is running on vegi oil (or, at times, B99).
There is still a problem with particulate matter and other smog-producing emissions; however, it is essentially a closed-carbon loop so it does not really contribute to global warming. Moreover, it is a small attempt to opt out of a oil economy, which is problematic for all sorts of geo-political reasons.
I'm not saying that running a converted diesel engine is without problems--which is why I still walk and bike as much as possible--but it is much better than running any version of an auto that uses standard gasoline.
The vespa mentioned above also gets good mileage, and scores on the style points; but, like my bicycle, it is tough to use for climbing roadtrips.
Best to try to do something good for the environment--hybrid, biodiesel, WVO, SVO, etc.--and then carpool. Too many idiots (sometimes me) on the way to Josh and Yosemite in cars with one person...
Brian
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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"Best to try to do something good for the environment--hybrid, biodiesel, WVO, SVO, etc.--and then carpool. Too many idiots (sometimes me) on the way to Josh and Yosemite in cars with one person..."
What's WVO/SVO?
I wish I could carpool to work. I teach, so my classes are at odd hours and not always at times that I'm willing to do the long BART/AC Transit combo ride.
When life is running normally my bf and I usually go together to Yosemite or wherever. When our schedules require that we go alone, driving two trucks really sucks big time for all sorts of reasons.
How expensive is biodiesel relative to the 'cheap' gas? Do you have problems w/ bears and other animals thinking your car is food. I heard that a bus that ran on cooking scraps was a bit of a bear problem in the park a while back, but I don't know if it was just people talking.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 13, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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What's WVO/SVO?
Waste Veggie Oil / Straight Veggie Oil, as opposed to biodiesel which is processed from Veggie Oil into a substance that's chemically and functionally very similar to Biodiesel. However, unlike biod, it requires some significant modification to the vehicle.
How expensive is biodiesel relative to the 'cheap' gas?
Depends a lot. Here in AZ, it's about the same price as regular Diesel fuel. I know it varies by state, tho
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 13, 2007 - 09:18pm PT
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Melissa,
WVO: Waste Vegtable Oil (i.e., from fryers).
SVO: Straight Vegtable Oil (i.e., WVO or new, unused oil).
Here in LA, B99 (99% biodiesel and 1% "dino diesel") is about the same price as 'normal' diesel and gas... within a dozen cents or so. The main problem is that only a couple of stations sell biodiesel at the pump. Lucky for me, one is right near the university where I work.
Most big cities have some enterprising folks who collect and sell WVO, usually for around 2.00 to 2.60 a gallon.
Interestingly, some poor sap in South Carolina was running his car on vegi oil and the fvcking cops actually busted him, hit him with a $1000 fine for not paying fuel taxes, referred him to the feds, etc. Crazy. There are some laws here in Cali about collecting oil, transporting oil, and storing oil (even vegi oil) at your home, but as far as I know they have not been enforced.
Some internet work will get you lots and lots of information and debate on various sorts of internal combustion engines. Given my situation, a vegi-oil car seemed to be the ethical way to go. I'm not saying everyone should do it--my wife has a Prius--but it works for me.
However, I am saying that we should all try to to a lot more than we do for the environment (the carpooling thing is a big problem for most California climbers).
By the way, I'm not saying it is ideal, but when I was living out of my car and climbing (for close to two years), I was driving a two door Mazda 323 hatchback. Maybe we all think of getting that dream roadtrip car (e.g., a Synchro), but do we really need it? That Mazda 323 did me well for lots of adventure, and got down every damn "road" into the Sierras, Rockies, and Wind Rivers that I ever needed to get down. Now, I never took it into the Ghost in January or anything, but if that "gutless" car works for 98% of your needs, you can always rent the uber-4x4 for the few trips you will need it. I think that small inconvenience is worth doing the better thing (damn, starting to sound like PTPP) for that 98% of the time.
Good luck making a decision!
Brian
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2007 - 09:26pm PT
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Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I'm not that well read on the veggie oil stuff, but from the bit that I've gleaned, I was led to believe that it's something that's only a good solution for a small % of the population.
I begin to know how to sum up the pros and cons of farmed fuel. Not being able to fill my car up reasonably easily and for the same cost as gas would be a deal breaker though. Of course, big agribusiness is already an evil factor in the 'regular' gas equation too.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 13, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Note that you can switch between biodiesel and normal diesel without any problems at all.
I have a 2004 VW Jetta TDI that I normally run on B20 (20% biodiesel, 80% normal diesel.) On road trips, I just fill up with straight diesel. No adjustment necessary. Tho I do find that the vehicle runs a little smoother on the B20.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 13, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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Right on Forest.
That's the beauty of the Lovecraft conversion: you can switch between diesel, biodiesel, WVO, and SVO--and you can mix any of the above in any combination--all in the same tank.
In the city you can run on vegi oil or biodiesel and, as you point out, can just drop in normal diesel when you run dry out in the middle of Utah...
Brian
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jun 13, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
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I need to take some photos of my schweetttt bed in my matrix. The back seats lay flat. The front passenger seat lays flat. Both front seats move waaaaay forward. Excellent sleeping room - I do it all the time.
Plus, I've shared the bed with many folks (once there were four of us - not recommended). And by sharing, I mean sleeping - sheesh! Only one person whined about it. Honestly, it's way bigger than it looks from the outside.
Just don't let Tim Stich drive it. He'll drive it until you are out of gas. *snicker*
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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I hear a lot of people talking about buying a new car to save money on gas. It makes no sense to me.
At 100 miles/day - compare 33 mpg (small commuter car) vs 20mpg (small/mid truck). So, saving about 2 gallons per day. Difference in cost is about 6-7 bucks around here. Now add in 50 bucks or so a month for insurance. We'll forget about maintenence and taxes and what-not, which may be all that and more for an old beater someone got sick of enough to sell! At this point, we're talking about 1.5-2 years to recoup gas and insurance alone. And your 2k is really blue collar, if you know what I mean. Lots of people are dumping 20-30k on hybrids while retaining their Yukons, Escalades, etc.
Do you see any consumer irony here?
Bringing one more car into circulation sure isn't going to help the environment either!
If money really is your concern - I say buy a moped, or downgrade the truck on your next go-around, some years from now.
JLP
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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389,000 miles on my 1990 four cylinder Toyota Camry and the engine is still solid. I do have a few electrical problems from a lightning strike that are annoying, but at least it still runs despite nature's wrath.
It also goes 28-34 miles per gallon.
(The only reason I am presently shopping for a new car is my ego. I am just tired of having the same car for seventeen years. Plus, it would be fun to have something that is made for snow and off road conditions.)
If I was to buy an old car, Toyota are known to age well. Especially their four cylinder models.
AF
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:21am PT
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Debbie's 2000 Honda Civic CX has 180k miles on it and still gets 38-41 mph, it's in good shape and is coming up on a timing belt replacement... it's in "good" condition and would probably resale for around $4700 (pretty unbelievable, actually, but I ran the numbers at the KBB site).
I'd say it has been a very dependable car and relatively low cost to maintain.
Once my Westie gets its diesel transplant I'd expect to see a milage increase to 30-40 mph range (up from 16-20 mph). This is going to be expensive though, but less than buying a new car and uses recycled parts... and would also burn alternative fuels...
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:35am PT
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Ed, it seems like 30-40 in a Vanagon is outrageously good mileage!
On the diesel vs. hybrid front: compare that to the Highlander hybrid, which it puts to shame. And it's a Westy.
Found your worthy donor yet? Best of luck with the whole project, I dig your comittment to the thing.
Bill
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 02:20am PT
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JLP...you must have missed the bit of my post where I said that one truck in our two truck household won't start. I didn't mention that first gear doesn't really work either so a new tranny will be needed.
Honestly, my budget isn't really padded to fix the truck (270,000 miles, btw) or get a different car, but it seems like getting a higher mileage car (same insurance, etc.) is more sensible.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 14, 2007 - 11:19am PT
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Melissa - you didn't mention you were going to retire one of the trucks. I've seen a LOT of new Prius' around town lately, often sharing the driveway with some big honk'n SUV. Some of my friends and even my mom are like "let's spend 20k on a new car to save a few bucks on gas.." We have an older gas mizer and a minivan between us at our house. No reason to have 2 big vehicles, unless we both worked constuction or something. Works fine. 270k miles with a bad tranny - sounds like a good time to junk out or sell.
I drove a Vespa for awhile way back. Faster than a moped, but still all the insurance of a cheap motorcycle, and not nearly as fast or as safe on the highways, with those tiny wheels. I had it in the late 80's - they were a little gay then, not as hip as today. Actually, I think they're still a little gay today as well unless you live in Thailand or something. Don't think I could handle some 19 yr old blowing by me on a crotch rocket, fat GF with some crack showing riding on the back - me on a Vespa. I guess my standards have changed.
JLP
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Jun 14, 2007 - 11:29am PT
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Wild Bill,
You are way off the mark on the safety aspect.
The Honda Civic is one of the safest cars out there.
It doesn't just come down to getting hit by another car, safety includes high-speed avoidance, rollover and crumple-zone safety.
Look it up and you may be enlightened.
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Tom the Cop
Sport climber
Northern Virginia
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Jun 14, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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I drive a 2001 Aztek. It's by far the ugliest car I've ever owned, but it's got almost 100k on it and I've only had a couple of minor problems with it.
I'll be driving it out to Sushifest and using the camping package this summer.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
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If you can find a mid 90s Civic HX you could get 39/45 mpg. Pretty gutless though.
A early 90s Yota 2wd 4cyl pickup will get you 22/29 mpg (about the same as a Subaru). And you could still do nearly everything you do in a 4wd truck.
For your needs I'd probably lean toward a mid 90s Corolla Wagon (early Matrix), 27/34 mpg, 4 doors, probably room to sleep.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
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Model T Ford autos got 23 MPG. WTF?????????
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