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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't go back and visit the people he'd helped to make sure that they remembered.
The reason people don't believe in Christianity, Jody, is that Christians don't act like they talk.
The learning curve just doesn't actually curve in this case, does it?
Can you really be that blind to what people are saying above?
How can you be an example of a loving Christian while saying "I helped so and so, and I sure hope they remember that..."
*ruefully shakes head*
-Aaron
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frodolf
climber
Sweden
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I would say it's the other way around - it's believers that lack something in their lifes.
Basically belief in deities have one reason: Fear. Fear of actually dying, for ever, that there is nothing else than this life, and the fear of wasting it. The fear of life not having a plot. The fear of retribution would the deities you've been brought up to believe in actually exist. Shake it up, put it in the mental owen for a decade or two, and you'll end up with Faith.
You can tell yourself that it's about love, that God is Love, but that is "dubblethink" a la Orwell's 1984, because God will make you suffer more than you can possibly imagine if you don't comply. That's not love, and you know it. You can tell yourself that you need it as a moral compass, but deep down you know you don't 'cause you're a decent person. You can tell yourself that you've talked to God in your prayers, but you know it was just yourself; you wanted it so badly.
You lack courage. You lack belief in yourself. You lack belief in mankind. And you're always searching for a substitute, a fix of comfort. "This guy tells me that I don't need to face my fears." Who can resist that when feeling weak and scared shitless? I know I couldn't once upon a time.
Anyone been on a scary pitch, looking down at a worthless nut fifteen feet down and thougt: "Hey! I'd do ANYTHING for a solid cam right now"? What belief does, is the same as a roll of duct tape: you can make the cam stick to the wall, you can even make it look nice with some effort, but you know it'll suck. Run it out, do the crux properly, and get to the bolted belay. The Bolted Belay of Truth :-)
This is how I see it. I could be dead wrong.
Take care.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Nice post, frodolf.
Locker: And non-believers talk about it for many reasons - it could be as simple as curiosity for why others do believe something so...unbelievable.
Leaping to the conclusion that there is a hole in them that can only be filled by your idea of God is at best naive and egocentric (e.g. MY religion is right, dammit!).
I see your point that there are many religious people that are full of sh#t - and many non-religious people that are in the same boat.
The difference - and this is important, so read carefully - the difference is that atheists don't try and convert others and make others believe something that doesn't pass through the old reality filter, and atheists don't KILL people or MAKE WAR on people who refuse to believe as they do.
and Jody - just because you helped someone in the past doesn't entitle you to being right in every debate you and he/she have in the future. If they don't believe that you're acting correctly, the fact that you "reached out" doesn't mean they necessarily should suspend their minds, their reality, or keep from saying what they think.
And I don't consider trying to win points by reminding them of something you did for them very classy in general.
I certainly don't think that's how Jesus would have handled it - based on stories I've read in the Bible, though, granted, even the Pope himself has said that we shouldn't take the Bible literally. Which, by the way, pretty much makes it fictional in nature. Logically, assuming that the highest Christian authority on the planet knows what he's talking about, also, logically, casts the idea of the Christian God in doubt, because our sole knowledge of God comes from the same book.
Think about it - from what source, other than man (who is fallible, if not often dishonest for various reasons like power or greed) have you proof - of any kind - that God exists?
Faith means to believe something without proof (or even slight evidence) - because someone said so - in this case with literally the highest of punishments imaginable as penalty (eternity in hell.)
That's pretty strong fear-based motivation, I'd say. Why, exactly, does it have to be that way?
I try not to participate in fear- or guilt-based motivation, of any kind. An absence of a negative does not make a positive. Extrapolated from what frodolf said above, absence of fear does not make a doctrine of love.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Thanks for that perspective, frod. I'm in there with an amalgam of several of these views, but your's is one I keep coming back to / attempt to deal, with.
Why do we NEED god? Isn't living right(ously), being excellent to each other, following the golden rule,etc, etc, enough?
(Why?) Do we crave the nod from a higher authority to make it cool?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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This thread contains some prolific and well thought out posts. I'm not strongly compelled to contend with anyone, here, about their belief or disbelief in God. But I have to contend with the notion that Jody is angry or unable to discuss things from a logical perspective.
Its possible that I know Jody more intimately than other participants in this thread. I don't see the anger, hostility or inability to discuss contrary points of view. Disagree with Jody, if you will, but don't misread his spirit, psyche and basic nature because he addresses issues in a direct, head on manner. Jody doesn't look for fights, but he gets into them because he wants specific conversation rather than arbitrary and seeks applied, practical doctrine rather than abstract speculation. Remember, he's in law enforcement----he deals with diversion on a daily basis, offenders who attempt to divert attention from essential reality to rationalize their behavior. So, perhaps it follows that (on occasion) he may see forum discussions as diversionary and say so. But from that, (whether he's right or wrong) you can't (by forward logic) deduce that he's angry, incompassionate or attempting to shove Christianity down people's throats.
(Christianity, by its own tenets, doesn't lend itself to force feeding)
I've been accused of being Jody's sock puppet in the past because I agreed with him, posted his photos or joked about our friendship. Jody=Jennie was a real ha-ha, to a few. It was also a handy method of disregarding anything I posted by claiming it was Jody trolling under another user name. Jody, himself, thought Jody=Jennie was hilarious. I didn't---it was an obvious maneuver to cast homophilic aspersion at Jody and in doing so, delete my forum identity.
Jody doesn't subscribe to Mormon doctine. Myself, I came from a Mormon background and remain a believer. Jody has told me that he doesn't believe in modern prophets or other Latter Day Saint claims. In fact he's communicated, on occasion, that my beliefs are way different than his. But that information was imparted in a considerate and compassionate manner. He has been respectful in his communication with my brothers and has prayed for my ailing mother on several occasions. His behavior has in no way been angry or prejudiced, nor has he tried to "Bible-thump" in an unrighteous or unwarranted manner.
I'm not anxious to inherit enemies, here, by defending Jody. But I HAVE to say, some of you ARE reading Jody wrong. He dislikes the concept of a Christian as a soft, yielding, masochistic, wimpy individual. Rather, he believes a true Christian is steadfast and unwavering. But because he insists on the firm, steady interpretation and attempts to press his case in a forceful manner, don't assume he's unable to look at other perspectives, is not compassionate or is unable to feel contrition for his own mistakes.
Jody IS NOT a tightly wound granny knot of prejudice, belligerance, malice and wrath. Its simply a mistake to cast him that way. And believing in God or being a Christian is NOT about being a punching bag. Jody has a right to challenge individuals who attack him. Jody may not be right 100% of the time, and admits he's made errors here in the past, but if I miss seeing that he has good intentions, intelligence, good humor and sincerity, then my perceptions need severe recalibration.
And to address Jody's original post I'd give Voltaire's comment "“If god didn’t exist, we’d have to invent him”. While not a popular quote with believers, it does have a certain wisdom when one looks at the energy with which both believers and non believers persue the question of God's existence. To me, whether believing or disbelieving; TO BE IS TO SEEK GOD. -- (paraphasing Hosea)
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Ouch!
climber
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"This thread contains some prolific and well thought out posts. I'm not strongly compelled to contend with anyone, here, about their belief or disbelief in God. But I have to contend with the notion that Jody is angry or unable to discuss things from a logical perspective.
Its possible that I know Jody more intimately than other participants in this thread. I don't see the anger, hostility or inability to discuss contrary points of view. Disagree with Jody, if you will, but don't misread his spirit, psyche and basic nature because he addresses issues in a direct, head on manner. Jody doesn't look for fights, but he gets into them because he wants specific conversation rather than arbitrary and seeks applied, practical doctrine rather than abstract speculation. Remember, he's in law enforcement----he deals with diversion on a daily basis, offenders who attempt to divert attention from essential reality to rationalize their behavior. So, perhaps it follows that (on occasion) he may see forum discussions as diversionary and say so. But from that, (whether he's right or wrong) you can't (by forward logic) deduce that he's angry, incompassionate or attempting to shove Christianity down people's throats.
(Christianity, by its own tenets, doesn't lend itself to force feeding)
I've been accused of being Jody's sock puppet in the past because I agreed with him, posted his photos or joked about our friendship. Jody=Jennie was a real ha-ha, to a few. It was also a handy method of disregarding anything I posted by claiming it was Jody trolling under another user name. Jody, himself, thought Jody=Jennie was hilarious. I didn't---it was an obvious maneuver to cast homophilic aspersion at Jody and in doing so, delete my forum identity.
Jody doesn't subscribe to Mormon doctine. Myself, I came from a Mormon background and remain a believer. Jody has told me that he doesn't believe in modern prophets or other Latter Day Saint claims. In fact he's communicated, on occasion, that my beliefs are way different than his. But that information was imparted in a considerate and compassionate manner. He has been respectful in his communication with my brothers and has prayed for my ailing mother on several occasions. His behavior has in no way been angry or prejudiced, nor has he tried to "Bible-thump" in an unrighteous or unwarranted manner.
I'm not anxious to inherit enemies, here, by defending Jody. But I HAVE to say, some of you ARE reading Jody wrong. He dislikes the concept of a Christian as a soft, yielding, masochistic, wimpy individual. Rather, he believes a true Christian is steadfast and unwavering. But because he insists on the firm, steady interpretation and attempts to press his case in a forceful manner, don't assume he's unable to look at other perspectives, is not compassionate or is unable to feel contrition for his own mistakes.
Jody IS NOT a tightly wound granny knot of prejudice, belligerance, malice and wrath. Its simply a mistake to cast him that way. And believing in God or being a Christian is NOT about being a punching bag. Jody has a right to challenge individuals who attack him. Jody may not be right 100% of the time, and admits he's made errors here in the past, but if I miss seeing that he has good intentions, intelligence, good humor and sincerity, then my perceptions need severe recalibration.
And to address Jody's original post I'd give Voltaire's comment "“If god didn’t exist, we’d have to invent him”. While not a popular quote with believers, it does have a certain wisdom when one looks at the energy with which both believers and non believers persue the question of God's existence. To me, whether believing or disbelieving; TO BE IS TO SEEK GOD. -- (paraphasing Hosea)"
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Thanks for the thoughtful post, Jennie. It certainly gives all of us some insight into Jody's character.
A thought that I had while reading it, though, was that of a crucial distinction: Jody started this thread, and brought on debate. No one went looking to bash him. Speaking personally, I just answered what I considered a naive and incorrect conclusion made in the OP.
The other thing I think of is a clearly HUGE lack of any sort of learning curve from Jody - evidenced slightly by the following:
"P.S. I'd do it again, even with this same person... "
This line of thought is present in any and every conversation or debate I've ever read with Jody as a member. A hard-line, closed-minded unwillingness to consider any other answers to a question. You say that he is intolerant of any diversification from getting to the answer to the question. I say he's intolerant of any answers to the question that don't exactly agree with his own limited experience.
And again, I don't feel that reaching out to help someone in the past entitles you to never hearing the rough side of their tongue if they believe you're in the wrong. And I don't think that him pointing it out is in line with anyone's beliefs - particularly those of a Christian (with which I'm intimately familiar, having grown up in the church.)
And no one could read much of your and his posts and still think that Jody=Jennie, in my opinion.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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DaftRat: An Islamic proverb may help. There's no point lying on your deathbed, gasping your last breaths, and regretting all the things you didn't do - because you forgot Allah is very forgiving and merciful.
Possibly Yawheh is of similar disposition.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Reading this thread doesn't give me the sense that there's really a lot of anger or intolerance on Jody's part, or on the part of his detractors. There just seem to be some very different perspectives on the subject of God/noGod. Pretty civil bunch, actually. The OP does'nt threaten me personally, because I have no certain idea what God may or may not be, and have no axe to grind, one way or the other. In my view, the God that makes the most sense is the one that is a unifying universal intelligence that we can all tap into, becoming somewhat god-like ourselves. Voltaire's statement, when turned over to see what lies beneath, is that we must have God in order to exist. A wise perspective, I think.
-It'sAllOneJello
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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My take is that Jody is another one of us figuring it out... Each of us seems to know THE way.
I lean more toward Voltaire than Jello's interp of same, but maybe we will tip a few and discuss this over armbars in august.
As I took down the flag today (one of my chores in this complex I find myself in more and more)I noticed a crowd around the clubhouse and lots of cars parked everywhere. A suit helped a trio of stooped women in flowing garments on their way in to the memorial service.
Habits? or shadours? I wondered.
Is it really necessary, to figure that out? I also wondered.
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WBraun
climber
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So they all hung out at the base of the big big terrifying climb.
They asked among themselves what's up there?
They all said "I don't know".
One guy said "I'm goin for it man, see ya all". "I'm gonna find out".
Off he went and disappeared for many years. Nobody else went.
The rest sat at the base and speculated.
One day the guy who went, returned and told them what was up there but they didn't recognized him anymore because he was completely changed and told them what was up there.
They didn't believe a word he said because they thought the guy they saw go up there was dead.
Thus the guys at the base continued with their speculations ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Really it comes down to a matter of belief, you believe or you don't. Ultimately there is no proof for or against; for one has faith in whatever answer that makes sense to them.
I do find it strange that people of faith feel that a universe of only physical laws is cold and empty, that it has no morality. I actually find it more amazing that this all exists and that we exist, for the briefest of moments, and can understand even the tiny fraction that we do. As for morality, we all have the power to empathize, with each other, with other living things, with the merely physical universe. That is its own powerful morality, and wisdom that is probably older than any religion: do to others what you would have them do to you. How utterly simple, yet how powerful, even the more so when there is no reason other than ones own sympathy for life, all life, life gone long ago, life yet to come, life that we can barely conceive of far away.
Worrying about the meaning of it all is really a distraction from living it. All we really know about life is that we have it, we live. I would prefer to celebrate that one thing I know is true, and wring from it all that I can. I don't fear what awaits me, billions of years proceeded me here, and there will be billions after. While I know a bit about that history, and a bit about the prophecy, I am thankful for the one thing that is mine alone in this huge sweep of time. That is awesome enough that I wouldn't ask for any more.
It is not a cold, dark universe, for we are here, all of us, we should revel in our fortune and celebrate together.
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George R
climber
The Gray Area
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Lots of interesting thoughts here.
Ed, I think you've pretty well nailed it. Well said.
G
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WBraun
climber
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If one has met God personally then there is proof.
No more faith, and no more belief is needed.
If you haven't met him, then you are in the faith and belief package.
Thus God can and is proven ......
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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This is a potent page right here.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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If one has met God personally then there is proof.
The Bolted Belay of Truth :-)
No more comment required!
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jody: Sorry to misunderstand.
Locker? When you ask a lot of questions?? I'm not real sure what you're trying to say?? wtf are you actually trying to say??
The statement about the hole being filled by your God was not aimed at you, but meant for Jody - in fact it was taken from a near-direct quote from the original post.
I was merely pointing out that his conclusion that his idea of God (unproven) would fill a "hole" (unproven) in me isn't accurate. And that his theory of those who aren't Christian talking about God are doing so *because* they're looking for God isn't necessarily right either.
It doesn't make a lot of (any) sense to say that what's real to others is different from what's real to me.
Reality - actual reality - is the final measuring stick in any debate. Real is real, and everything else ... isn't.
(Bolted Belay of Truth)
Now, in a case like this, we can argue all day, because there's no way of proving that God exists - which means no way of finding out the reality of the situation. So there are a lot of guesses, and who knows who's right.
Speaking personally, I want to believe there is a God, though I'm not yet quite sure *why* I want to believe that.
Huge amounts of demonstrable evidence speaks AGAINST the idea, though, with none except the words of men that I don't know or trust to speak FOR the idea.
Maybe Ed's right: the concept is unanswerable either way, and so we're better off just peacefully enjoying the time we have in an authentic manner.
But Christians make the stakes in this debate so high (not believing = eternity in hell) that it's hard to just ... let go.
And by and large, though there may be exceptions, historically it's the religious that do most of the attempting to convert, and the violence that is the ultimate conclusion to a failed conversion process. Though there may be exceptions, generally atheists (and I'm not the speaker for them, on this forum or in any other) and agnostics aren't trying to convince - or kill - anyone. Christians, Muslims, etc., historically, are.
-Aaron
PS: I don't understand people that believe in God but DON'T believe in Hell. After all, the two concepts come from the exact same source! wtf?!? How can you just pick and choose the ideas that you like?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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"Oh, you talk big and criticize any and everything relating to God and Jesus but the truth of the matter is something is missing in your life and you are searching for it. "
Yeah, where are my keys? Got to get to work.
Jody, keep on searching buddy.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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"If you ask me to show you God, I will point to the sun or a tree or a worm. But, if you say, 'You mean, then, that God is the sun, the trees, the worm, and all other things?'-I shall have to say that you have missed the point entirely."
-Allan W. Watts
-JR
P.S. Believing in God does not neccasarrily mean ou have to bvelieve in hell.
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John Moosie
climber
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I believe there is Hell. I simply don't believe that it is for an eternity or is a place we go to after we physically die. I believe that hell is the suffering we create when we seek to seperate ourselves from our creator. It is sort of like if you gave your arm consciousness and free will and then it decided to leave your body. How could it function without the body? It can't. In the long run, neither can we function without the totality of ourselves which is God. We are an aspect of God, we have the capacity or power to create, and we have free will and we have awareness. Just not in the same amounts as the totality of God. So what is hell. It is the seperation of ourself from the totality of God. It is created through our choices. In the physcial sense you can see this mirrored in the hell we create with physcical choices. Consider Diet. If you overeat or have poor eating habits, then you will suffer the consequences of poor health. This is all done in the eternal Now. The consequences are designed into the system. There are rewards and there are consequences as there are for all actions. Even the actions of God. If God desired order and did things that created chaos, then God would suffer the consequences of not having order. This is the way of life.
Yet would a God of Unconditional Love allow hell to continue forever? I don't think so. So how is this rectified? Through something called the second Death. The bible calls this the death of the spirit. It is not eternal hell. The Bible simply states that the fires that are the second death are eternal. Not the suffering. So the second death is the wiping out of ones consciousness and can be viewed as God not allowing eternal suffering. What does this mean? It means that because we have free will we can create an existence that devolves deeper and deeper into suffering until we are so lost that the way back out of suffering appears to be too difficult and so we give up. Yet God does not desire eternal suffering. How could a God of unconditional Love desire eternal suffering for what is essentially itself, since everything is made out of God?
How does God solve this?
By the action of the second death.
God gives us a time frame in which to learn the lessons we are meant to learn here in this universe. We choose to come here and we enter something called the wheel of Life. If we learn these lessons then we are born in the spirit and move to the next level. This means that we have eternal life. If we don't learn these lessons then we are reincarnated in the physical plane through the action of the wheel of life. If we still do not learn our lessons and continue to create suffering, then we will eventually be wiped out in the second death. Yet the second death does not come after just one lifetime. The time we have here to learn the things we chose to learn is limited yet most spiritual teachers have come to understand that our time hear on earth can be measured in numbers closer to a million years. There is much debate on this as there are things that create variables in this number.
I seem to have gotten off course here. So what is Hell? It is the suffering that we create in the totality of every one of our decisions. We have been here for a very long time and we have made many mistakes. Originally we resided in a place or consciousness that some call the " Garden of Eden". The Garden was a safe school room that was orginally designed to give us easy access to teachers who could help us correct our mistakes. We were meant to learn to create things with permanance. Things that did no harm and were created out of uncondtitional Love. We chose to create things outside the bounderies of Love. This was our free will, yet each choice has consequences. The consequence was that over time our consiousness lowered so much that we could no longer remain in the consiousness of the "Garden" and therefore ended up in this current place. A place where instead of learning daily and moment by moment in Spirit and with easy access to teachers who could help us correct our mistakes, instead we lowered our consciousnees and now we find our teacher to be the laws of karma.
It is our choices that create hell. Hell is the suffering we experience when we create outside the bounderies of Love and it can be overcome by learning the rules of Life, ie the Law of Love.
This is sort of long and I feel a bit out of sorts today so I hope it makes sense. If not, then I am sure that someone here will tell me. I am smiling ruefully.. Haha.....
John
P.S. A good book on this topic of hell is "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis.
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