Double Rope Management

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dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 23, 2007 - 02:57pm PT

HEY the_don, you can bite me, and I'll keep an eye out for your appearance in the emergency room or ANAM.

It's morons like you who prove that climbing isn't really that dangerous, or people would be dying every week.

Let's hope your luck continues to hold, cause you and a few others seem to rely on it.

Crimpergirl

Social climber

St. Looney

Mar 23, 2007 - 03:31pm PT

Wait - I see a potential lethal problem here. What is one hires two different guides and then gets two different sets of opinions???? Hire a third? Then what if *they* have a different opinion? Cripes - this really is complex.

Magritte

climber

Mar 23, 2007 - 05:21pm PT

Happy Birthday, you're Super Bad!

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 23, 2007 - 06:10pm PT

DOnd#@&%e, now tell me something I don't know.

But a cavalier attitude about climbing hazards, AKA climbing hubris, is a bad thing, and there is LOT of that in this thread.

Crimpestuous one, it is a documanted fact that if you find three accredited guides, who give you three totally different methods for correctly using doubles, then your head will explode. So proceed with caution!

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Mar 23, 2007 - 06:27pm PT

Perhaps, in an ideal world, we would all learn new things from genuine experts. Unfortunately, not only is this not always practical, but the very notion of who is a genuine expert in climbing is, sadly, open to considerable debate. I really don't see any great harm in inquiring about climbing practices on the web, and the thousands of posts over various sites suggest there are others who think they at least stand of chance of getting some useful information.

It is true that a certain amount, in some cases the majority, of information is bad. However, the same may well be true if one consults various "experts" in the field---the AMG Manual recommending the figure-eight variation of the Euro-Death Knot stands as an enduring example of the ability of experts to be fatally wrong. The fact that someone has been doing something in a particular way, perhaps for years, is no guarantee that this is anywhere near the best way to proceed.

So in the end, you have to listen to what everyone has to say and then do your best to make your own clear-headed decisions. It has always been this way, but now the internet gives us the ability to listen to many more voices before we make up our minds, and unlike others who dump on, for example, rc.noob, I've found that after nearly fifty years of climbing, I still find much useful information in these discussions, even if it is sometimes buried in a virtual heap o' crap.

In this spirit, I offer the following remarks, which I trust will be evaluated for whatever they are worth.

(1) Handling doubles. It is a little harder than handling a single rope, and in my experience the problems go up as the diameter goes down. I don't like to use ropes much smaller than 8.5mm, below that they seem to tangle too easily. Of course, I haven't tried anything close to all brands in anything close to all conditions, so YMMV.

I do try to do everything I can to alleviate kinking. This begins with the tedious process of unrolling brand new ropes from their coils, rather than just flaking them out, to make sure you don't begin with 30 or so kinks twisted into your rope. Then, as much as possible, the belayer on the first pitch avoids tying in until the ropes have been pulled up by the leader. This keeps the party from "locking in" twists.

At the start of the climb, I flake the ropes out separately. Once on the climb, they are handled together. Piling them on a ledge, if this option is available, seems to me to work much better than draping them over the tie-in, but this may be because I've never been able to master the fine art of draping each loop shorter than the previous one while belaying the second.

If the ropes get twisted on a pitch, I always undo them by having one of the climbers make full rotations, without untying from the rope. This is the way the twists were created, and undoing them this way keeps the rope free of kinks. Alternately stepping over one rope and dropping it over your head undoes the twisting of two ropes but may add even more kinks to one of them.

It is possible to view the twisting of two ropes as an advantage, since the twisting detects kinks put in the rope and gives you exactly the information you need to undo those kinks.

(2) Belay devices. The trouble with this discussion is that friction in the system keeps most falls within the abilities of all belay devices. Statements about catching big falls with device X give little or no information on how device X will perform in the much rarer high fall-factor low friction fall. But rappelling does give a clue. If you have any trouble controlling a rappel, which is bodyweight on two strands, you will be in a world of trouble holding a low-friction fall on one strand. I think ease of rappel control is a bare minimum requirement for belay safety, and by this standard, the regular ATC and the Reverso are inadequate for sub-9 mm ropes. (Newer Reversos have a toothed rope bearing rather than a smooth one; I do not know whether this would change my opinion.)

Mike Dahlquist

Trad climber

Berkeley, CA

Mar 23, 2007 - 10:11pm PT

A Reverso in hands-free mode is how I typically belay a second (or two) on doubles. You can easily stack both ropes seperately by pulling one up at a time into its own little pile on a ledge or over a daisy chain, trading off between the ropes as needed to keep your second(s) on a close belay. Once your leader takes off, assuming your piles are neat, you should be cluster f**k free belaying him or her. If the ropes are small try the Reversino.

reddirt

climber

Mar 24, 2007 - 07:07pm PT

edit- deleting this post... cutting off fuel to the fire

Aya K

Trad climber

New York

Mar 25, 2007 - 12:33am PT

reddirt - sorry, assuming you clipped the blue rope at your stance there in the photo, what was wrong with the way you clipped your ropes? Looks like the way I would have done it for a route I knew had a big traverse?

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 25, 2007 - 01:22am PT

Every one of your biners has the gate facing the rock. that's not good.

Can't see anything wrong with what you did otherwise, except maybe it's better to angle up to the horizontal? From where you are you really want to clip that blue rope as soon as you can.

Looks like 5.7 or less, where is it? The east maybe? Could be in NC.

BTW, the first pitch of the OR at Whitesides in NC is 140 feet with just about no pro, kind of similar to the blank slab part.

Tomcat

Trad climber

Chatham N.H.

Mar 25, 2007 - 10:44am PT

My advice,we climb on them all the time.RGold is right on,don't have second tie in until push off,but do take a proactive step to avoid any possibility of them getting through the device,so stopper knots yes.If the pitch is under 100 feet with 60's you can skip that step.Just common sense.

My partners all know that with me it's blue left,red right.No sense starting with a twist.Stack seperately when beginning.Noobs and one very experienced partner of mine pull up one rope then the other once established at the belay.Don't do this,pull them together.

Don't knot them together with a stopper knot when you rappel,asking for trouble.If you want stopper knots keep them seperate.Be careful knott to run the ropes over themselves when rapping.So like with an ATC type device do not let the rope furthest from you run over the nearer,you can watch the kinks form this way.Just about no-one mountaineer colis anymore,butterfly them.

On steep or free raps I am now adding a second biner,easier to control descent.

Twist ups do occur,do as RGold says and have the second turn them out when they occur.You can get so many the second can't get near the pieces without a wad of slack in front of them.

I'd stay away from really skinnys until you get the thing down.8.5's or 8.6's are good.Learn to split them both for wandering purposes,where you might clip one rope four times in a row,then shift to the other.Generally I would not do this on hard ground.Then alternate them for straighter ground.If you want a little extra beef at a great piece or bolt,clip one rope short with a draw,and one rope long with a full length runner.You don't want them to load simultaneously.Don't clip them both to stuff with the same biner.

Doubles are great for spooky clips,and better for retreating from a route.To retreat clip one through the top piece and lower off,while the belayer takes up the other rope as you down lead.This is a good way to get off a route.The choice of which rope to clip at the top has to do with how they are clipped below,the one with the best and highest clips is the one you don't clip at the top.You want your best pieces on the downlead rope,and may occasionally drop down on a good piece,rearrange the clips below and then move up to remove the good one.

I can see why some folks climb on a single rope,but have never been able to understand why people will lead on a single and drag a rap rope when you could be on doubles.

mack

Trad climber

vermont

Mar 25, 2007 - 01:35pm PT

"the belayer on the first pitch avoids tying in until the ropes have been pulled up by the leader. This keeps the party from "locking in" twists. "

The first time I used double ropes was with a guide. He wanted me to tie into the ends before he took off. Well to say the least that first experience left me thinking working with double ropes was a royal pain in the ass. The kinking was so bad I had a hard time getting to the pieces to clean them and when he came anywhere near the length of the rope on the pitch the kinks were impossible to straighten out. And to top it off, I'm embarrased to admit I dropped a #3 Camelot in the process of reaching awkwardly around a clusterf*ck of kinked and tangled ropes. Bummer. I have a little more experience now and never tie in before the leader reaches the 1st belay.
mack

August West

Trad climber

Where the wind blows strange

Mar 25, 2007 - 04:24pm PT

The not having the second tie in until leaving the ground is good advice. If I am the belayer and the first pitch is short, I will sometimes run all the rest of the rope(s) through the belay device (before tieing in), to try and make sure the twist are out.

Using an auto-blocking device like the reverso can help when belaying up the second. This is what my partner and I have done at akward belays. Knowing the rope will self-lock off makes it easier/quicker to stuff the ropes into a rope bag.

After using them almost full time for a couple of years, my partner and I gave up on them. We decided that even with experience, we could travel faster with singles. But each to their own.

reddirt

climber

Mar 26, 2007 - 04:23am PT

"Every one of your biners has the gate facing the rock. that's not good."

coming from you, after the way you've been posting on this thread, makes this seemingly alarming comment ignorable... after thinking/checking things through.

Gary

climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Mar 26, 2007 - 10:58am PT

DMT: You spelt it wrong and Sunshine hasn't graced my PC for a long long time. That was a usenet thing.

I'm so maudlin, and pine for the old days.

I am curious, though, as to how dirt could see the orientation of the biners in that photo.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 26, 2007 - 12:10pm PT

Fine redirt, be an ass. Nevermind that biners facing the rock is a bad thing, you just go right ahead, and BTW, don't ask for advice if you don't want it. If yo udon't like what I've posted, maybe you should read it more carefully, adn see the part wehre I mention that peopel should consult Rgold on the matter of long falls and doubles, and then, LO and behold, Rgold posts up the best advice in the thread, and agrees about getting a real person to show you the 'ropes', as it were.

Try again, and try not to be such a pissant this time, OK?

ANd you'd better learn to evaluate what is said, instead of basing your opinion on your prejudice agaisnt who said it, DUMBASS.

Frankly, if after you've 'checked things through', you find that having all your biner's gates face the rock is OK, you need to take up another sport, cause that can get you killed. I'll let you do the research on the matter yourself, but it's there, and at least one fatality in the last few years was linked partly to a biner gate opening agaisnt the rock, weakening the biner and allowing it to break. Yeah, this stuff happens, hell you cna even see the warning about gates against rock in EVERY insert from every biner manufacturer. Maybe you should have looked?

Gary, if you click on the link to the larger version, you'll have no trouble seeing the biner orientation.

reddirt

climber

Mar 26, 2007 - 12:19pm PT

you need help

reddirt

climber

Mar 26, 2007 - 12:28pm PT

when the rope is tensioned, unless the biners are on dogbones w/ the rubber thingy or duct tape to maintain orientation, the biners will face however they will, perhaps differently each time. the rope was tensioned by the belayer to take the shot.

bitterness & lashing out is unbecoming AND not constructive.

dirtineye

Trad climber

the south

Mar 26, 2007 - 12:36pm PT

I don't need help, you need a clue.

You are wrong about how biners act. YOU must be joking, do you really believe what you wrote?

Get over yourself, you clipped wrong on at least three of the pieces in your pic. THis is a beginner mistake times three. There isn't enough tension there to make any difference. The rope is sagging for christ's sake.

Go ahead, keep your head in the sand, refuse to learn form your mistakes, or even to admit them. Be a moron, seems like you are good at it!

And again, don't ask for advice when you don't really want it. Idiot.