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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 25, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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I'm skeptical of anyone who says if you don't do it this way or that way you're not really living fully. There is a season for everything.
I guess I've grappled with these questions: To what degree is the obsessive behavior destructive? Am I doing XXX to avoid something uncomfortable, to be OK in someone else's eyes or to satisfy the rigid definition of OK that my ego is putting out there when something else in my gut isn't so resolute? To what degree is my obsessive behavior positive and essential to becoming excellent at anything? If the latter feels more true, does mastery of the thing in question contribute enough to the universe for me to feel OK with the other sacrifices I have to make to pursue it with the amount of focus I'm giving it?
I guess my advice to myself and anyone else struggling with the same questions would be to give yourself permission to change your answers (and overrule your ego or the peanut gallery if you find their direction is at odds with something else inside of you) as you move through times of loss or times of intense motivation.
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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Thanks for the responses everyone.
Perhaps in my haste, I didn't express my sentiments and inquiry very clearly.
Niels died rappelling. A known dangerous aspect of the sport, but not high risk per se. He was someone who, before his second brothers death, pushed his own limits by doing things like a headlamp lit free solo of the Rostrum after a day of YOSAR training. But after Erik passed, he toned it down. He knew he wasn't allowed to die. He became very safety conscious.
Felix died on the East Buttress of El Cap. A well traveled valley classic by climber induced rock fall.
My own leg shattering accident happened on an approach to a mountain classic.
What do you tell yourself, how to you feel happy heading back into an activity that, even when ego is checked and safety is on the forefront of your mind, and risks are minimized can and has killed. And will kill again?
"Risk, for it truly to be risky, means that some must pay the cost. Some will die. Others will be maimed. It can't be otherwise." Niels Tietze
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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I think most of us would agree with this statement:
“Climbing is wonderful, but it’s not worth dying for.”
I would guess that even the climbers who take the most risks today would not argue with this; I am confident that each of my friends who have died climbing would have agreed.
So we all agree it is not worth getting killed for, but friends keep dying, and we all take some measure of utterly unnecessary risk, every time we rope up.
One of John Long’s very best stories is the about the time his ego almost got him killed when he was about 19 years old, when soloing with Bachar. I noticed it has been retold in an audio version with photos, and it couldn’t be more timely.
The moral of the story, “to thine own self be true” –especially when your life is at stake–is something we all need to remember. Listen to John read it here.
https://vimeo.com/66605812
Also, I have to comment on my old friend Warbler’s statement:
…no male climber has ever, in 50 years of climbing, fretted about [deaths of friends] to me personally, or here on ST (impersonally) publicly. I've seen my share of friends go down hard, this type of reaction never crossed my mind. Just recently another woman posted a very similar theme in a thread here.
To the contrary, Kevin, I have “fretted,” and cried about, deaths of my friends both privately and pubiclly, as well as having written a bit on the subject.
The risks we take are an essential part of what makes climbing so compelling. The late, great Royal Robbins said, “We have to remember that if we’re talking about real risk, occasionally there is a price to be paid.”
I think Libby’s question is essential to ask, and I have no answer. But art is often more articulate than analysis, and “The Only Blasphemy” gets right to the heart of the issue.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2017 - 11:44am PT
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One's destiny in this life determines when and how one must exit its mortal body.
One's developed consciousness in this life determines what body one gets next and its destiny.
There is NO such thing as one life only and that is it ......
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Nov 25, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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Maybe, maybe not. Absolutes about death are not absolutely certain.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 25, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
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In the words of the great philosopher Mei Ang Liss, "It is what it is"
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
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There's a whole spectrum of risk in climbing. Top roping a 50' crag with no loose rock on it is very low risk. Leading an X rated climb can be pretty high risk. We all make choices of how much risk we are willing to accept. I have gone to 5 open books and changed what climb I would do because I don't want to be under other climbers with a lot of loose rock at the top.
There's always random stuff that can happen on any climb, and it pays to be vigilant about tying in and double checking anchors etc. especially when rappelling
So personally I can justify the relatively low risk types of climbing that I do. But I know other people who are far more advanced than I am may need to introduce higher risk simply to do the types of climbs that challenge them. It's up to all of us to determine where that risk/reward ratio limit is.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Nov 25, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
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I try to always be honest about and conscious of the risk I am taking, and to regularly ask myself if it is still worth it. So far, it still is.
You can die in various ways climbing, with or without making a mistake, but there is no fault in accepting a well-understood risk
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mudrock
climber
Eastside
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Nov 25, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
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velvet! said, "What do you tell yourself, how do you feel happy...?"
Werner side-stepped a bit. Maybe developing one's consciousness is a guaranteed consequence of accepting the risk inherent in being a conquistador of the useless. Maybe not.
Knowingly assuming risk can offer access to the sublime.
From the long side of 60 years around the sun, what I tell myself is that I have brushed against the sublime and no one or no thing can take that from me, as long as I "keep on livin."
I don't know much about being happy, except that I like how it comes and goes for such superficial and trivial reasons and is so pleasant.
I tell myself that the sublime *is* always there, and I'm *always* ready to welcome it. But I'm not addicted to searching for it. I tell myself that just having fun is Ok.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 26, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
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In an activity where injury and death is ever present, where we have all lost loved ones repeatedly...how do we justify going back into the hills again and again?
We could apply this statement to any number of activities we humans participate in. Climbing is analogous to the hero's journey in mythology.
A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man
The mysterious adventure is what it is all about, we can live this on a daily basis if we adopt the proper perception.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2017 - 11:50pm PT
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My own leg shattering accident happened on an approach to a mountain classic.
What do you tell yourself, how to you feel happy heading back into an activity that, even when ego is checked and safety is on the forefront of your mind, and risks are minimized can and has killed. And will kill again?
"Risk, for it truly to be risky, means that some must pay the cost. Some will die. Others will be maimed. It can't be otherwise." Niels Tietze
We watched the helicopter on your rescue across the canyon, on our own little adventure. On the way down from that one, I slipped and fell and avoided, somehow, a bad blow to my head.
You didn't think that that approach would result in your injury, but you knew that the possibility existed that such an injury was possible.
I was tired, and didn't think I'd have a problem on the descent, but there I was thanking my lucky stars.
We put ourselves into these situations with the understanding that there is a risk, and we are willing to undertake risk based on our expectation of the outcome, both positive and negative. Sometimes this process is rational, sometimes more than a little irrationality injects itself; we pull it off, we don't pull it off, so many factors involved.
When we arrived back at our "base camp" we heard of your accident, besides being worried and concerned for you, absolutely understood that it could happen to any of us. It's funny as we gain experience we remember these sorts of things... since John Long's gym accident I always ask to see my partner's tie-in knot, both at the gym and outside. Such a little thing to check, such big consequences if an incomplete tie-in goes undetected.
There are so many such "experiences," and one related to you, Libby, related to vigilance when moving over that terrain. It is not a judgmental thought, but an admonition from a friend.
Three years ago two of my closest climbing partners had climbing career ending accidents within two weeks of each other, and I was there both times. Previously I had never had a partner injured climbing in 40 years of climbing.
I still go out, and I still take risks, perhaps not intentionally as risky as before, but intention often has little to do with the outcome. Still, we prepare and attempt to stack the deck in our favor.
My father never understood why I took the risk climbing. He was right to say that not climbing would eliminate that particular risk, that it was the responsible thing for a husband and a father and a son and a brother to do.
I never did have an answer for him.
Much earlier when I started climbing at 16, I asked my mother if she was worried about my climbing, she answered, "no, I trust you." I don't know where that came.
Maybe it was that expression of trust, however, that let me go out and take those risks and have those amazing experiences. But I don't think for a moment that luck hasn't had a lot to do with the outcome so far.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:19am PT
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hey there say, lambone... as to your quote here:
Nov 24, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Been asking myself the same thing lately. After having a very close encounter with a major rockfall on El Cap this fall I’m really questioning why I put myself in the danger zone with the risk of leaving my two little girls without a father. It scares me....
Still I can’t help making plans on the Captain for the Spring. I don’t think I can quit, even if I did want to...
then-- just do everything you can, to provide for their future in some
strong way, and, be there as much as you can, to coach and teach them,
as they grow... they will get what they NEED from this-- which is your love...
many other children in the world, come to know that 'daddies' have things
that they MUST do... if done in 'constructive' (and not sterile cold hearted ways) ... your kids will know and respect that, and have a strong
foundation...
they will know that this is PART of who you are...
*however, i will add... if you have very young BABIES... i think it is
WISER still, to STOP for awhile, and BUILD those earlier bonding-foundations, FIRST (so a young mom is not left with babies that will never know the father) ... as the foundations gets 'more and more' built upon,
then, more understanding can grow...
they will still have pain if they loose you, but at least it
won't seem 'senseless' to them, or your family...
and, you will have DONE the best you could, to build around
WHO you are...
say, nice to hear from you, :)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 27, 2017 - 04:42am PT
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Ah, the Wisdom of the Pages of ST.
Makes me feel good just being here.
One fine thread among so many coarse ones.
Thanks all.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 27, 2017 - 09:26am PT
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I like Ed's comments, I'd add that a true acceptance of risk and consequences is a process of maturity.
It doesn't take a lot of maturity to go free solo something when you're 23 - and at that age you can probably do a good job articulating something that sounds wise and beyond your years on the matter - it's another thing entirely to make peace with yourself in the hospital after a lifelong debilitating injury or the death of someone close.
I believe this process of acceptance makes one more aware and more vigilant to the risks around them, and generally less likely to take them.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 27, 2017 - 09:32am PT
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Just checking in on the Junkie/OCD/Hotel California thread.
Remember, YER the one that has to ask for help.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 27, 2017 - 10:06am PT
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Just finished visiting my Mom at the skilled nursing facility. Seeing the folks "living" there, I'd rather fall off a mountain.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Nov 27, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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Just finished visiting my Mom at the skilled nursing facility. Seeing the folks "living" there, I'd rather fall off a mountain. I have watched several family members die in nursing homes (or whatever they call themselves), and all of them wanted to die long before death was permitted, perhaps because they still had money. Do not let yourself go this way.
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cellardoor
Trad climber
berkeley,ca
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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We're all going to die. We lose people in our lives regardless of activities such as rock climbing. I do agree that risk and death is ever more present in extreme activities, but every single person on this planet has and will deal with loss - whether it's a job, relationship, death, lifestyle.
We're all suffering and we're all struggling together. I have lost my best friend to drugs, uncle to alcohol, and my father went missing a few years ago. None of these incidents are related to climbing.
I find a lot of comfort knowing that my pain is a part of everyone else's pain. It allows me to step out of my small perspective of grief and sorrow, which is pretty self-centered, to understand and empathize with others around me. It helps to feel not so alone and isolated.
I think maintaining this perspective allows me to continue my life with joy and rock climbing is very much so a joyful activity. I have also come to terms with the risk and I am ok with it if I die.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
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IMO the risk is not so much of death as of permanent incapacity.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Nov 27, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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Does a descending death count as a "climbing" death? Many years ago, during a weekend at Smith Rock, after a great day of climbing, around the campfire that night someone said that one of our club's climbers died while descending from a successful summit of Whitney. Our friend was glissading down and went over a cliff band to his death.
After hearing that I immediately felt the winds go out of my sails. I lost all interest in climbing at that moment. Yet, after a week or so had passed, I was back into the climbing again, albeit at a reduced difficulty level.
I don't have to "justify" climbing, any more than I have to justify eating a salad instead of a cheeseburger. Climbing is simply a part of my life, like raking leaves, or shopping for groceries. I try to get enjoyment and fulfillment from everything I do. Therein lies my justification.
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