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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Oct 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Agree with the fet.
Peace
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 10, 2017 - 10:37am PT
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Llama. Good on ya. See what happens with this. You did the right thing and represented yourself well. Very cool.
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Llama
Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 10:44am PT
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Thanks Gordo. This is always a touchy subject and I suppose it always will be. Open discourse is healthy and makes us all better in the end.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:34am PT
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Hey, Llama, your granddad had to be either Andy Nizetich, Ed Brekke, or Ron Goodrich. They weren't all co-owners at once. My two original co-owners, Tom Limp and Don Nagy, are deceased as is Ed Brekke, the last owner after my move to Bishop. I'm curious.
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Llama
Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Hey Don! Didn't know you were on here!
My grandpa was Don Nagy.
I met you at Facelift years ago and gave you a stuff sack I had made with an original West Ridge patch on it. My mom had kept a bunch of those.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:44am PT
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Llama, so your Dad was Bob?
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Llama
Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:47am PT
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No, that was my uncle. My mom is Judy, the youngest of the clan. Bob passed away a couple years ago unexpectedly.
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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This is always a touchy subject and I suppose it always will be.
Shouldn't be.
It's really easy not to put up new routes extra close to established routes especially at a place like Suicide where most climbers would consider it climbed out as far as new route potential many years ago. How many other climbers have thought about bolting that route but decided it wasn't cool? You should have just top roped it and moved on.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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Llama, I saw Bob every time he came through Bishop. He always left me with a few pairs of Wigwam socks. His death was quite a shock to me. I'd known him since he was a very young kid in the early 60s.
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Llama
Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
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I still have lots of those from him as well. It was a big loss to us and the whole outdoor community.
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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
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I am grateful for all the kind thoughts and responses. Thanks for not attacking anyone personally ( for the most part ).
If we can not communicate as fellow humans, learning to navigate our shortcomings and gifts, who cares if the rock has some holes in it.? We have much bigger problems to tackle.
I do hope theses bolts disappear and are patched skillfully! Clark Jacobs is the undisputed master at patching. If the rocks did not change color slightly from season to season, his patch job on Valhalla would be virtually invisible.
Hubbard: are you Mark Hubbard?
I went by Ernie for a number of years.
My friend , Herb Jeffries, inspired me to embrace the Name of my father.
Ernesto
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Oct 10, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
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Hi Ernesto. I am Chris Hubbard from San Diego. Fifty six years old. Would like to know about the routes you did in the cirque up behind Tahquitz. It's a big area. Tons of spray on MP but none here on ST. Seems like Llama did things right. He asked the first ascent party. He was able to do this because they shared what they had done publicly and he was able to find out who they were. If they had said don't bolt it, I bet he wouldn't have.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
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This retro-bolting was done with the permission of a member of the FA team and in a style I felt was befitting the area.
Thanks for the background llama. It certainly gives the issue some needed context. However, while your first statement is true, I'd argue with your second. While I believe that what to bolt and what not to bolt are subjective, I don't believe the style or ethic at Idyllwild is consistent with something that is a pretty evident squeeze job. The manner in which they were placed, yes; but right next to an established crack climb, no. In all fairness, I did not remember seeing them the last time I was there, but the nature of the route might suggest to others not so willing to ask first that bolted routes of this nature are in tune with the area.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 10, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
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Nice to see some informed discussion happening. Things get ugly when there is more speculation than facts.
I agree that squeeze jobs are ugly. We see too much of that up here in some areas.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Oct 10, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
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chop it
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Oct 10, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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Not a fan of squeeze jobs, especially when they contain bolts that can be clipped from another route.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Oct 10, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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Guillotine is a classic Suicide climb. It is a bit different because it climbs series of thin flakes and some of the climbing has no immediate protection possibility. There are several of these flakes and one needs to do some climbing a bit off one's last piece...
For me, the issue is, having bolts so close to Guillotine, that I can clip them if I get scared on the lead, completely negates the quality of this classic climb. Those clip-able bolts ruined the lead on Guillotine.
I would think esthetics (SP?) would prevail and we can agree that these bolts are not in the best interest of any of us. There is little space to the left of Guillotine and right of Graham Crackers anyway, no more than 5-6 feet. Look at the photo Ernesto posted above.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 10, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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Good discussion.
We got the facts on the table.
I think Warbler puts a good perspective on this.
And to those who do not know.... this is not the climb to the right of Graham Crackers... That is Greasy Kid Stuff, 5.10 R .... this is to the right of GKS.... and I don't think the bolts could be used to protect Guillotine because they are to far to the left.
Question for Llama .... on MP one of the admins said he knew who did it but didn't think they are climbers anymore..... TRUE????
well anyway.
I'm going to put away my pitch fork and chopping tool... but when something like BOLTING up the Flower becomes cool and Super Awesome... they will see the light of day.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Oct 10, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
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I have climbed Guillotine many times in the past but not with the new bolts.
Ernesto Ale and my British guest Dave Garnett climbed it last Saturday and reported that the bolts are so close (at least in the upper section) that you can clip them.
I'm sure Ernesto can confirm this or shed more light on it.
Again, if you can clip one or more bolts from Guillotine, the Decapitation lost nothing but the Guillotine lost (in essence) everything.
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RhoadsClimbs
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
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I remember the bottom 2 or 3 bolts being close to some gear placements too. In my opinion this is an ugly and unnecessary clip up and I'm baffled as to you why Gaines would sanction bolting it. It's clearly not within the local ethic and deserves the chop. When there's so many established climbs out there that need some bolt replacement why this climb would deserve bolts appears to be strictly for ego. Much respect to llama for fessing up but this was a mistake.
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