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DanaB
climber
CT
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In other words, that the president is above the law.
Coincidence. Just started reading Constitutional Cliffhangers, Brian Kalt - a discussion about the Presidency and the law, immunity, executive privilege, etc.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yeah, Madbolter,
I suppose that you worry about the thought police breaking down your door and tossing you into a secret prison.
The first amendment is strong in this country, so I conclude that you are quite safe.
Libertarians have a similar view, and I side more with the libertarians than either political party. As long as you don't go advocating violence, I'm behind you, even though I disagree that you are in any danger of being arrested or even muzzled. Even if you DO advocate violence, that is still protected speech, unless you are in cahoots with criminals, who do things like Tim McVeigh pulled in my city.
The militia/patriot movement really suffered after the OKC bombing. Now they are back and as strong as ever. As long as they don't break any laws, they are free to say what they like. There were only 3 arrests in the OKC bombing. McVeigh, Nichols, and Fourtier, who knew of the plot but did nothing to stop it.
We don't have a lot of love for militia types here in this state. Not after that horrific event.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: naive or mislaid trusts...
This seems a fitting addition to this thread given a few sentiments or attitudes expressed here...
"We tend to assume that institutions will automatically maintain themselves against even the most direct attacks. This was the very mistake that some German Jews made about Hitler and the Nazis after they had formed a government. On February 2, 1933, for example, a leading newspaper for German Jews published an editorial expressing this mislaid trust:
"We do not subscribe to the view that Mr. Hitler and his friends, now finally in possession of the power they have so long desired, will implement the proposals circulating in [Nazi newspapers]; they will not suddenly deprive German Jews of their constitutional rights, nor enclose them in ghettos, nor subject them to the jealous and murderous impulses of the mob. They cannot do this because a number of crucial factors hold powers in check… and they clearly do not want to go down that road. When one acts as a European power, the whole atmosphere tends towards ethical reflection upon one’s better self and away from revisiting one’s earlier oppositional posture."
"Such was the view of many reasonable people in 1933, just as it is the view of many reasonable people now. The mistake is to assume that rulers who came to power through institutions cannot change or destroy those very institutions..."
Snyder, Timothy.
On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century (pp. 23-24)
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mad Bolter- The trend of the last 50-60 years has been the systematic turning on its head of this logical priority, such that now (far too many) people honestly believe that "law and order" just MEANS that individuals CANNOT protect themselves.
First it was "Corporations are people too".
And now according to Mad Bolter "Militias are individuals too" thus having the right to engage in policing activity as a group.
That's great!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Typical- the brief, glossed over false narrative associated to liberals followed by a tsunami of bullshit based upon those falsehoods.
Typical diversion tactics. You set up a catch-22. If I try to keep it short, you call it "glossed over." If I go into careful, rigorous detail, you call it a "WoT" and claim that "nobody can read a post like that."
So, yet again, I give up. Bottom line is quite simple: YOU can go all over the world and find a home with like-minded people. But ANY chance for originalist, classical-liberal government is right here. Since you are determined to turn us into a European non-nation, you could exert less effort to just move to one. People like me are backed into enough of a corner at this point that, like I said, the USA is the "last stand" for us.
There are many ways to "fight" and many sorts of "fires," and MANY of us middle-class folks are FED UP with decades and decades of BOTH parties raping us. I know many who feel like me: ANY more raping of the middle class, and we'll (in droves) just quit producing, downsize our lifestyles enough to live on the government teat (as SO many others already do), and you can very quickly watch your socialist-democratic utopia blow up in your faces like Greece and Spain (and others on the way).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And now according to Mad Bolter "Militias are individuals too" thus having the right to engage in policing activity as a group.
That's just idiotic, and it's a classic example of the straw-manning that absolutely guarantees that NO dialog can take place.
So, as I said, you'll drive half this nation to giving up or violence. We either TALK or we fight.
YOUR choice. But you do NOT want to drive us to either violence or to giving up.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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There's another bullsh#t, glossed over reference- Now the US, Greece and Spain are one in the same! Can you stick to facts please?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You got it right Madbolter.....when it comes to religion and politics NO dialog can take place on an open internet forum. All you will get is proselytizing and pontificating. Just back from two wonderful climbing days in the Black Canyon.....just beautiful rock, circling swallows and the Gunnison raging below.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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YOUR choice. But you do NOT want to drive us to either violence or to giving up.
Well, if your violence is as loopy as your logic, I don't think WE have much to fear.
You say that, as a believer in the right of individuals to take the law into their own hands (F*#k the Police -- LET'S GRAB OUR GUNS AND DO IT OUR WAY!!!), there is only one place in the world left for you to live (the USA). Whereas people who believe in a society where the good of all ought to be considered along with the good of the individual, have plenty of places to live.
You're half right. There are plenty of choices for those who are willing to accept that sometimes the feelings, rights, and needs of others ought to be considered along with their own.
But you're wrong about the US being the only place left for those who, like you, believe in your right to load up your gun and do whatever the f*#k you want. If the US is getting too fuzzy and nice for you, you could always move to Afghanistan. Or Somalia. Or Libya. Or any of dozens of other places where your philosophy has been played out to its logical end -- warlordism.
Yup. No worries for you in Somalia. Government won't interfere with you there...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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And the above is why the alt-left is a dying movement.
Straw-man is the only way you can argue.
The LAST thing I'm suggesting is everybody taking up a gun and doing whatever they want with it.
What you don't seem to get is that any legitimate rule of law MUST allow for individuals to be the "first-responders" in their own self-defense. That's DEFENSE, not offense. So, Somalia has NO relevance to a reasonable discussion.
Keep straw-manning, and you'll ultimately lose (perhaps everything you hold dear). If WE can't reason together civilly, this nation is doomed. Sadly, the fallout will likely miss our generation and instead take out your children and their children.
Perhaps they'll look back someday and say to you, "Dad, really? You REALLY couldn't find ANY common ground but instead read your 'opponent' as saying that everybody should be able to shoot anybody else like they do in SOMALIA? Really? THAT was the best 'discussion' you could muster up?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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perhaps he should take his own advice f*#k off to another country
Well, every now and then I jump into a politard thread and give it a try. Again and again the same result: The alt-left OWNS the Taco Stand, and there is NO rational discussion possible.
Like the Hillary loss, your utter determination that you have the ONLY moral high ground, the ONLY rationality, and CANNOT ultimately lose WILL be your downfall. But I have no more time to waste on it.
Bye bye now. Back to your regularly scheduled echo chamber.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I am far, far from "alt left"
Same for me.
Madbolter, if you read your own post, and then think about what you read, maybe you'll see why I responded as I did. Your post really does read like a call for vigilante justice.
I haven't heard anyone here saying you shouldn't have the right to defend yourself. What I have heard is you incessantly whining about how the government is infringing on your rights. Government bad, government bad, government bad, ad nauseam.
If you really want a civil discourse, maybe you should start from a positive, rather than a negative stance, and look for common ground. Endless walls of text full of CAPITALIZATIONS and reeking of "I'm way smarter than you" do not encourage anyone to engage with you in a civil manner.
What do you think the role of government should be? Your rants against government interference make you sound like an complete anarchist, but anarchy leads only to warlordism and I doubt you want that.
So, if you want civil discourse, step down from your lectern and engage in it.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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I Hope the Russians Love Their Children Too. They do right? So now the neolibs are Russia hating and the Commie Haters are Putin Bromancing. The Saudis get the weapons. Hillary and Obama are the geniuses behind Syria. Bush and Cheney funded Proto Isis. Bernie votes with the Israel delegates. Elizabeth Warren is Blonde now. What exactly looks any different than business as usual. After Schwarzenegger and Mugabe nothing surprises me. I do still have to eat my shoe because President Cartman.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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That how this thread starting growing. Madbolter chimed in. I liked his anti-meat polemics better. They were rationale; this is not.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Mad Bolter- Come forward with some solid conservative analysis. The kind of argument that doesn't apologise for Republican, social and economic theory. I think we'd all welcome some solid debate minus your condescending stereotypes and myopia.
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WBraun
climber
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Oh and then we have to listen contractor brainwashed bullsh!t .......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Contractor: Come forward with some solid conservative analysis.
I don’t think that’s necessary in order to present another viewpoint. One can have one of those without residing in one particular camp.
From a leadership / turnaround perspective, what is not expected could be enough to get the mass off of its dead center. It could also hold true for relationships with alliance partners. I know this sounds radical, but sometimes it helps just to be different. Even if it's wrong.
Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t see any particular leadership style as good or bad.
What makes a difference is what makes a difference.
Be well.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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holy tilt...
gotta admit i'm lost on this one.
i missed where anyone, including anybody on the "alt left", was arguing carte blanche against militias.
i just saw people arguing that militias seemed like a mighty strange way to deal with what has traditionally amounted to domestic police work [given the portland perp seems to have most likely been both mentally ill and unaffiliated with any greater organization].
and now mad seems to be arguing that even though the paid army can't be used in situations like this [for good reason on domestic soil when no organized military threat is involved], that volunteer military organizations should be given license to deal with folks like the portland dude?
seriously? i honestly didn't know that there were americans or humans in general who thought it their right to band together into volunteer armies to combat domestic law breaking...
i hope i'm missing something obvious...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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From the site that Ed pointed to:
CLAIM: Julius Caesar bade us beware of leaders who bang the drums of war.
STATUS: FALSE.
It got me thinking about wars. (Been in one myself.) Our country has gotten involved in many wars, and almost all modern-day ones have not gone very well.
The War on Terror.
The War on Poverty.
The War on Drugs.
The War on Escalating Health Costs / or the The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (shortened to ACA)
The War on Poor or Under-funded Education.
. . . and so on.
Maybe we should eschew the term "War" when we talk about such things, and come with less dramatic initiatives that somehow work with people.
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