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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could too easily melt the rope. I don't know if that is more or less likely than with a carabiner brake system, but nylon on nylon was always risky.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could to easily melt the rope
Well so can nylon against steel or aluminum.
We had an El Cap rescue years ago on the Tangerine Trip in 100 degree weather.
While lowering the rescuer to the victim the sheath of the rope traveling thru the brake bars started to melt.
We had to pack the brake bars with ice to keep them cool.
I came down from above Camp 4 (Muir Wall) once using a petzl stop non stop in abot 10 minutes ( speed raps) on fixed lines and melted the sheath at the bottom.
Speed rapping should never be done by n00bs.
When speed rapping you never daisy or anchor into the belays when transferring from one rope to the next.
Just one aider to stand in and switch ropes.
If you blow it your number is up ......
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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I remember (I think, memory being what it is.) Pratt telling me that they (Robins, Frost, Fitchen, Pratt) used 6 carabiner brakes on the 1960 ascent of the Nose.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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That said, there are still some advantages to the carabiner brake method.
And I discovered there are disadvantages, too. There I was, on a winter solo in the Cascades.
I thought I was being so cutting edge by taking a long 7mm for the descent. I drop over the
overhanging cornice in the first rappel with the doubled 7mm and a two biner brake and all
hell 'brakes' loose! Suddenly I'm in mid-air holding on for dear life and I see the two biners
have slid off the other two biners cause the 7mm were too skinny! Ya mean I shoulda tried
this sh!t out first? Really?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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One dangerous thing I was repeatedly warned against which had happened to others, was catching clothing or long hair in the biner brake bar.
As for using it on the first ascent of the Nose, that sounds about right given its widespread usage by 1963.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
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That is interesting, Tom. When did you start using carabiner brakes?
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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In the fall of '65 I did Slab Happy Center with Pratt. I had an aluminum Holubar brake bar.
Pratt instructed me in the disadvantages of the brake bar, demonstrated the 'biner brake and that was it for the bar.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 16, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could too easily melt the rope. I don't know if that is more or less likely than with a carabiner brake system, but nylon on nylon was always risky.
I've heard of ropes being glazed by fast rappelling using all kinds of gadgets, and I suspect that a metal descender is much more likely to cause this than a Munter hitch, for the simple reason that the metal stays in place and heats up, whereas the Munter knot is always moving and so always rubbing sections that haven't been heated yet. (Of course, the Munter is also heating the HMS carabiner, and it could glaze the rope, but this wouldn't be essentially different from what happens with other rap devices.)
I do think that if you regularly rappel with a Munter (does anyone know anyone who actually did?), you'd probably fuzz up the sheath.
One dangerous thing I was repeatedly warned against which had happened to others, was catching clothing or long hair in the biner brake bar.
This is nasty possibility associated with virtually every descender; nothing special about the biner brake. I suspect it can occur with a Munter as well, but maybe the chances of snagging are lower and it might be easier to extract the hair or clothing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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Munter rappel will twist the ropes like hell.
That's one reason it never became popular.
Munter rappel also requires a larger biner to get both ropes thru.
Munter did get used quite often as belay device.
We used to use the Munter as a belay device for a couple of years.
It also twisted the rope like hell.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jan 17, 2017 - 12:11am PT
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I started climbing in 1958-9 and met Layton either near the end of 60 or start of 1961. From that moment we used the 6-carabiner brakebar system and none else. Before we started to climb with Layton, Larry Dalke and I had been mentored by Baker Armstrong and Dale Johnson who both at times used the system. We knew about actual brakebars, but thought they were unnecessary and something extra to carry. So I know we used them from 1960. I'm not sure who invented the idea, could have been just about anyone back then, and perhaps someone well before Layton. They far preceded swami-belts and harnesses. Whenever we saw someone with a harness we thought, again, that something was odd and unnecessary about that. Of course by about the mid-1970's harnesses would start to be everyone's favorite, while the old guard, Kamps, myself, and others continued to use either a swami or a single loop with a bowline.... Erickson was using a harness in the early 1970's, one of the earlier people around Boulder to use a harness. But back to brakebars,I think some of the more mountaineer types likely used the 6-brakebar system for ready use in the mountains, people in Colorado such as Cary Huston, Tom Hornbein, possibly even the Stettner Brothers....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 17, 2017 - 05:48am PT
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The inventor?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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Werner- What is the logic behind not attaching yourself to the belay anchors when changing ropes set up station to station? Seems like you are putting a lot of faith in a single aider and your balance if I understand you correctly.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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I still use the carabiner break on occasion. I like how friction can easily be adjusted by adding another cross biner, or even a second break. When rapping the East Ledges after soloing the Shield, I was able to rap with all of my gear at one time by clipping the pig directly into a 12 biner break.
Every climber should know how use a carabiner break. Many modern climbers are screwed if they drop their gri gri or belay device, yet they have everything they need on them
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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I popularized it for myself after my first or second dulfer in 1969.
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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A question for those who have actually used a munter on double rope rappels.
Did you tie a separate munter for each rope side by side on single, large locking biner (as Werner specifies) or use two locking biners? (I'm guessing you can't tie a double rope into a single munter.
(good thing to know in some weird escapade, but I'm guessing I would prefer to use the two locking biners in a cross brake configuration (if that is all I had...) rather than for a munter.
TT
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jan 17, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
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But a carabiner brake only works if you have some sort of sit harness.
IIRC... we used swamis made from 1 inch tape and just clipped the 6 biners to this....you couldn't hang around to much but no sit harness was ever used
by me ... this changed when a bunch of Colorado climbers showed up at Josh in like 78 or so .... that's when I went out and bought one for the first time (a chounard)
good topic... I always felt that the gear was different around the globe. When I started climbing with these Norwegian dudes... I first watched a muntner in use, and those boys ate some really strange food I tell ya... raw eggs into the Mac n Cheese with FISH.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 17, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
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People definitely rapped off just their swamis, even on overhangs. But someone also died that way in the Needles (SD, not CA). I don't recall details other than it was on the Sore Thumb; somehow they got stuck hanging and suffocated.
This was particularly sad since for some time we knew to turn upside down when hanging if swami pressure had to be relieved. Pratt had written an article for summit which illustrated how to turn upside down, step through a figure-eight sling while inverted, and then straighten back up, weighting the sling in the process.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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Wasn't that maneuver called the "monkey hang" or something like that?
A holdover from the bowline waist tie in of yesteryear that had the same problem as a swami with no leg loops.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jan 17, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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We rappeled on swamis for several years before harnesses appeared. I even did the King Swing on the Nose with a big wall rack and a swami. I was a little out of breath at the end of it. Fortunately, that was a lighter version of myself.
I was with Bridwell one time and for some reason, we didn't have enough carabiners for both of us to set up a proper brake. He showed me a version using only two carabiners. Anybody else ever use that one?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
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Yes, both carabiners are flat and the rope winds around the radiused ends.
I used that method for a while because it looked cool but it was clearly unsafe.
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