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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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that is a neat idea. I take it the idea is to drive the pin, then drill the hole for the bolt through that extra eyehole, and hammer that in, fixing it for good? Looks super bomber, just can't drive it too deep or you'll block the hole.
I have to ask though, is there really an interest in replica leepers, or other old style hangers? That 'new leeper' looks plenty bomber, but I have to say, when I'm clipping a bolt, the only thing I really care about is if it's bomber or not. Historical bolts can be neat, I guess, but a fake historical hanger?
maybe others feel differently?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The bigger concept is historical restoration using period hardware replication. When you climb the East Buttress of Middle and hit the bolt ladder would you find it pleasing to clip into bombproof period bent strap hangers or a line of justboughts. The same for the Nose route as I have proposed earlier. I don't know about you but I like period hardware as long as it works properly. My old Victorian era house is full of it but it is a matter of taste and opinion. To some folks, houses aren't about such things.
I happen to be in the position to innovate a little here and see where it leads......
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Steve, there is something so freaking cool about the pin bolts, and yet at the same time does it make sense? Like Clint has pointed out, how different is this than placing a bolt with a modern hanger in the same location as the piton eye? And as far as trying to copy the Leeper bolt hanger, this has always been a lousy design for a bolt hanger, even Leeper agrees now. Of course it is far better in stainless steel, but still not to par with a Metolius, Petzl, or Fixe. Would it make any sense to copy the quarter inch bolt too? How would you even place a pin bolt? Seems as if you would need a pin bolt of the exact same size at the original placement, the placement would have to be one where the pin is flush with the rock, you would have to drive it, mark the bolt placement, drill the bolt hole, place the bolt, redrive the pin, and bolt it on. Or could you drill the hole through the pin? I admit to very little experience placing bolts, so I don't really know. I also admit that I will never be leading this route, since even with new gear it sounds too dangerous for my tastes. But it also sounds AWESOME, I'd be super psyched to repeat the Kor Beck and rap it, toproping every pitch on the way down. I just know that if in fact I WAS leading it, I would be way more psyched to find modern bolts and hangers at the original gear placements than something custom made for just this route. I also BOW DOWN to those who are willing and motivated to place gear on new routes, or fix old ones like this. If you feel it best to use your inovative pin bolts, then go for it, that rules. I just wanted to point out what I would do if it was me replacing the gear (which btw is not going to happen). I would replace every pin and bolt placement with a modern bolt and hanger, in the same place as the original placements. Whoever ends up doing the work, thank you!
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WBraun
climber
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There are some climbs that will always remain true classics, timeless and they will transcend our everyday mundane ramblings of our foolish minds.
These routes can never be destroyed.
They are eternal creations by the true climbing spirit.
They remain in our hearts which never die .......
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Tom,
Yet another of your vague re-hash posts. The details of the pinbolt installation and intended fabrication have already been laid out. The rationale for their use has already been adequately described from my end. Far less clear is your position on the subject. You simply can't give blanket approval to my efforts while maintaining the position that you find the end result undesirable. Is it that you don't trust the skill and judgement of people like myself or does your need for a consistent and predictable climbing experience somehow narrow your focus down to commercial hardware only? If the nuances of the proposed restoration elude you as somebody that does not drill, no surprise there.
Conventional hardware relies on providence, ability and discovery to arrange. Bolts are inherently arbitrary and are usually positioned and placed using a distinct set of criteria. Merely positioning bolts in the vicinity of the original piton placements without some functional connection will more than likely lead to what will be experienced by future parties as an awkwardly bolted pitch with respect to the flow of movement. It is going to take sound and caring judgement to produce optimal results once all relevant concerns are addressed. It sounds like you don't care what the finished product looks like as long as it fits, makes you feel warm and carries a designer label.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Hmmm, I think you may have over reacted there a little Steve. I think the question is a good one. Are we looking at using pinbolts strictly to maintain the look of the original placements? If so, then has the community decided that is a worthwhile objective? It seems that the resulting piece is not going to be functionally any different than placing a regular bolt so the main difference is aesthetics. Do people really care (other than you obviously)? Please don't take this personally, as someone who has been climbing for 33 years I am just wondering how people feel about this.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Damn Gnomer... ya beat me to it while I was looking up how to spell aestetics or however that goes.....
If the pin is now a bolt, why not just use a bolt that a regular punter can maintain etc. The crack moves, the pin gets loose, you can't beat it back in because it is a bolt... then you have a bad pin-bolt. If the bolt needs to be fixed, can you go up in size on the bolt or if the pin needs to be beat back in, then the hole wont line up.
I'm just not getting it.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan and Russ, that's funny stuff!
It is my belief that people other than Steve care about this; me included. The pin placements on this route are (imho) ideally suited to the pin bolt concept.
The more I considered what Steve was proposing, the more I realized that he is way ahead of the curve. All of us have seen the inane posts by climber wannabes who cry about how routes are too run out and how everything should be retro-bolted. Routes like Space Babble stand in stark contrast to this effort to sanitize rock climbing.
Treating routes like these as both great routes as well as historically significant in a "physical" sense, is the best way to not just preserve an ethic, but to elevate it to something to be respected and honored. In the process, it becoes living history that can be exeprienced by anyone who brings the proper skills to the table.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Great topic Mr. Dicey. I've been on some "training wheel" slabs out here (yeah, there's a few) but don't think I'll be on big slabby runs in the near future without the requisite "Calves of Steel".
Cheers from the land of more forearms than legs! What ever happened to those magz?
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Ok Randy, let me ask this a different way. Does anyone other than us old f#cks care about having a route like this 'look' the same as it originally did, in regard to pro, while actually making it safe(r) to climb by really using bolts that just happen to look like pins? I can see where our generation is getting to the point where we care about our 'heritage', but does the climbing community as a whole care whether there is a bolt that looks like a pin, or a normal bolt on these routes?
Is the bolt-pin thingy as good as a bolt or is the bolt in it only good enough to keep the pin in the crack but not sufficient to catch falls? And if the later, is this false advertising?
Don't get me wrong, I can see where the aesthetics might feel important to the FA, but is this a good path to go down?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan... I suspect that if properly placed (maybe with a tad of epoxy on the blade tip), these pins will be bomber pins that will last and be bomber. But, that is an excellent question and one that should be explored.
My own feeling is that there is a nascient movement among some younger climbers toward a new trad ethic. I think the idea of retro bolting everything for the (m)asses is a dead end. This type of restoration might not only encourage younger climbers to get on these routes, but may (my hope) change the thinking about such route's value to climbing.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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that's cool randy...
but what does it really say when these pinbolts are placed?
This is a pin placement, that's been bolted?
It's an interesting idea. BUT, a)you still have to drill, and b) it has the same effect as a bolt.
Will we see pinbolts on FAs? My guess is no, we'll see bolts. So is this just a discrete preservation of history project? And does it meet it's intended goal?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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(Edited a bit, for readability.)
If route finding is or should be integral to the challenge of at least some routes, e.g. Space Babbble, together with maintaining an experience that is as close as possible to the first ascent, then the important thing may not be whether it's a regular bolt or a pinbolt. The key is that it be in the same place as the original placement, be reliable and durable, and if possible no more visible. Even if that means the new placements are often not so convenient.
A modern stainless unit, even if disguised as a pin bolt, will unavoidably be much stronger than a Rawl bolt was, even when new. However, the latter was perceived (in the 1970s) as being as "secure" as the former is now. The Rawl units were placed because they were then 'state of the art'. So that doesn't change the ethos much - although it should be admitted that we all relied on Rawl bolts, fell on them, and used them for belays, but never really trusted them.
A thin pin behind a flake may be less secure, even if newly placed, than a new bolt placed in adjacent solid rock. Replacing an old pin with a new bolt in the same location, where microcams aren't an option, may thus make a climb a bit less committing. There's also perceptions. Once climbers are informed that, although there may not be a lot of protection, and it may be hard to find, at least it's reliable, as are the belays, then some of the psychological barriers go away.
I'm still trying to get my head around the pinbolt concept - they may be just a little too elaborate in terms of functionality. A lot may depend on how they're placed, and some experimentation may make sense.
A very good thread, and healthy discussion. A bit too much re-bolting goes on at Squamish, IMHO anyway, and morphs into retrobolting.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Exactly, I would like to hear Steve's thoughts on the strength of the pinbolt. Looking at his photo it doesn't look like the pin is really designed to be driven well, just set in the existing hole and bolted to the wall. This would seem to mean that the fall holding ability of the unit is in the bolt. If that's the case then I just don't see the point. If the bolt is only there to hold the pin in place then I see this as a ruse that is going to get the people who are uninitiated in this device in trouble because they are going to assume it is as strong as a bolt. So, except for the aesthetic attributes of this device, I just don't get it. And if that is the only point, then who are we doing this for?
Steve?????
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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I was thinking about this the other day. There's a perceptual benefit to the pin bolt that a regular bolt in the same location won't offer. Pins, like nuts, get placed where they can. Sometimes, this is not from an ideal stance, it's a matter of where you can get the pro. Modern bolt craft is all about positioning the bolt in the best location for the clip. Having your "bolt" also be a "pin" makes the placement location more sensible, whereas if it were just a bolt, it'd be real easy to envision the route as botched, since you could have placed the bolt in another location better suited to clipping, rather than working with what the rock has to offer.
Sure, it's a subtle psychological thing, but so is much of what makes climbing interesting.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Can't say I agree with the concept - all the destruction of drilling a bolt hole, with the added visual impact of a pin? A large SS 'pin' would certainly grab my attention (in a negative) manner more than a hanger, or a normal cro-moly pin.
Also, what sort of bolt would be used with this pinbolt? Would it be replaceable? How strong would it be?
If it is an adventure route and has fixed pins, use the fixed pins. If you care about the safety of a route, use bolts?
If there are preexisting bolts (or pins), they should be maintained at approximately the same percieved level of 'bomberness', etc. as the FA.
i.e. 1/4" bolts with handers == 3/8" or whatever new bolts with handers when dangerous, rusty old pins replaced with newer pins, etc.
If the route needs to change, why attempt it with half way 'solutions' that don't seem to accomplish it any better?
I don't think anyone would be under the impression that what they have is ANYTHING like what the FA had?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Howdy folks,
This discussion was started early on the Welcome to Kevin Worral thread and has jumped here. I have tried to address most of the issues already on the table tonight in earlier posts but I am going to recap a little. The discussion started with replacing the pins on SB especially the first pitch. The current absence of most of the original protection points has greatly contributed to a lack of repeat ascents. I began thinking stainless steel and theft resistant and the pinbolt concept was off. The only pictures of the pinbolts shown thus far are of unfinished blanks with no taper ground or blade material added to yield a finished shape. I just wanted to get the conversation rolling plus I was exited about the possibilities.I clearly plan on having an ample selection at my disposal come gametime and will show and tell asap.
Because these pinbolts are cut from type 304 stainless steel angle, I get a uniform 3/16" material thickness and I can make them right or left handed and to whatever length and shape necessary. All BD blades for instance have the eye on the left, CMI's on the right. At this point there is no stainless Lost Arrow on the horizon so the basic blade shape of a CMI is what I chose to pursue. At this point I am not entertaining any through bolt smaller than a 3/8" stainless button head cap screw set in rated construction epoxy or a 3/8" X 4" 18-8 stainless steel machine bolt set mechanically. Either of these proposed bolt installations, if done properly, exceed the strength of the draws. I am a GC and understand well what is involved here on all fronts.
Space Babble is in pristine condition right now as it has "protected itself by unprotectable" to quote YC & DR. I plan on setting fixed lines from above with Kevin and/or Ron present to first check the whole situation out. These pinbolts are available as an alternative if the original features will not offer reasonable and adequate conventional protection. Once an individual pin placement is determined to be necessary and desirable (by whatever process) a custom, blackened pinbolt will be set and throughbolted using one of the two fasteners described above. The strength of each pinbolt easily exceeds the fastener once set but does not rely primarily on the holding power of the blade as does a conventional piton. Since this is no longer intended as a line of shakey fixed pins, the odds are that only one or two may be necessary if other pro shows up.
This is an outcome quality centered process and a labor of love. Give careful thought to your own past climbing and you will probably realize that clipping fixed pitons and other hardware has value in historic reference that will disappear without a more reliable and lasting solution. I am also trying to raise awareness about doing thoughtful anchor replacement. In the interest of maintaining flavor, it would be simple to replace all of the old SMC type hangers everywhere with identical stainless steel ones. These are currently out of production even though there has never been a failure according to SMC. All that would need to happen to start production again would be a significant order. The ASCA folks should consider it. They should enter into this discussion once it becomes a little more generalized. I am really concerned about unnecessary rock damage from fork pullers and am reviving a great old design for widespread use pulling 1/4" and 3/8" compression type bolts. I hate to keep saying this but more soon.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Steve
No worries, I am an expert in seeing both sides of things, I very much respect your opinion on this subject. A few posts back I was simply pointing out how I personally feel about this, while simultaneously showing mass respect for not only the first ascent party, but also for whomever takes it upon themselves to fix what sounds like an awesome and amazing route. I will fully admit right now that I am a hypocrite, since I do not in any way agree with any alteration to rock whatsoever...yet I am THRILLED that there are those willing to take the time, effort, and money to drill holes, place pins, whatever is necessary to create and upgrade routes for my benefit! Once again, I BOW DOWN. Thank you all, including you! Even after your response to my last post! And I will gratefully clip those bolts! I thank you. I do have a question after your latest post, though. I am completely missing your point about the SMC hangers. I guess you can lump this along with my prior comment about Leeper hangers. Yes, the SMC design is better than the Leeper, but still worse than that of current hangers. So why do you want to try and get SMC to make them again? I can fully understand why the pinbolts inspire you, because they are innovative and cool, but why in the world would you want a company to again produce a hanger that is inferior to the latest designs, that has always required a bolt, and that the same company has abandoned for likely the same reason? Thanks for your input!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Two things just dawned on me regarding pinbolts. Would these not be more destructive to the rock than either a pin or a bolt? Since both pins and bolts are destructive, doesn't this just double the destruction over one or the other? Also, since all fixed gear is a form of climber related trash, and since the goal has always been to keep the amount of hardware fixed to the bare minimum, and since a pinbolt uses more metal that either a pin or a bolt, does this not cause a contradiction? Just another thought...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey Steve, so does SMC acknowledge the many failures of the non-stainless hangers, and have they ever recalled the non-stainless? I've never had a straight answer on that from anyone.
Stainless SMCs are generally good hangers, but they're modern sport hangers in the eyes of 99% of climbers (while the old thin ones are sketchy looking when rusty). They also have their weaknesses - on overhangs they bend out, and on vertical/slabby stuff they can get stretched/bent/beat up (eg many sport routes at Owens). If you used metal as thick as those replica Leepers, the hangers would be a lot larger than the stainless SMCs, and thicker, heavier, and likely more noticeable than a Petzl. Not sure what the point of replicating them would be - not that different from a Petzl, which are a superior design. Fixe's are bigger, but still hard to spot (after replacing Stoners people were having trouble finding the first bolt). Both the Petzl & Fixe have larger holes that can easily accept two biners (nice for belays).
I like the pinbolt idea at first, and I really like the idea of maintaining historical flavor with the piton, but the more I think about it the more I have to agree with Clint - a well-positioned bolt with Petzl hanger (or SMC or replica Leeper, etc) is probably a better long-term solution. My main concern is what happens with freeze-thaw cycles and flake flexing. I think a pin-bolt might subject the bolt to strange loading cycles over the long term. The other thing is that these stainless pins, once they are tapered down to replicate the original, might bend/squish during installation.
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