Terrorism: Unlock the iphone when it is terrorism

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John M

climber
Feb 20, 2016 - 10:46am PT
all the encryption in the world doesn't stop traitors.

thats not very good reasoning. what you are saying is that since we can't stop everything, we shouldn't try to stop anything.

If you applied that reasoning to a bank, then we should just leave the vault open because we can't stop every robber.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 10:49am PT
John M,

No! We would be better of identifying traitors and when they are selling the goods over the phone -- then nab 'em.

Encryption doesn't not stop diffusion of proprietary ideas and if traitors have encryption privileges then they will be harder yet to detect.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 20, 2016 - 10:50am PT
speaking of the Hair, I heard PETA was after him for animal cruelty in the collection of that chimp-rug-toupee


identifying traitors


man, you sound awful scared DM. did you enjoy the McCarthy years?

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.


And yeah, some folks that choose to illegally acquire meds for humane/comfortable end-of-life exit DO need encryption to protect themselves from this morally turgid legal system. But yeah, I get it, yer scurred.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 11:07am PT
thebravecowboy,

you sound awful scared DM. did you enjoy the McCarthy years?
I do not take a liking to your juxtapositioning --- This line is not a line from me:

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

And what would you know about the McCarthy years?

Last summer I battled three dumb fu*king cowboys of the Q Creek Ranch [Wal Mart Shirley Basin] and beat them at their finest game: 3 on One and they had the GUN.

Why the hell would I be scared of an illusion? The valiant never taste of death but once.

If there ever was a case against eating red meat, it should be that the cowboys are so stupid!

Jeremy B.

climber
Northern California
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:14am PT
Answer, if you can get out of the box, what are the tools National Security needs to stop those whose very intent is destroy a system that permits the freedoms you talk about?

I'll start with the ever-nebulous but oft-neglected "basic policework". Reliance on fancy tools can be a crippling thing; if you can win the people over most of your work is done for you. When things go badly wrong it's often the result of a chain of mistakes.

Another tool? Education, and setting expectations. A ignorant population is easily led by the nose, particularly with (usually incorrect) phrases like "just this once", "we must do something", and "this couldn't have been foreseen". That's a population that expects free lunches because everything around them is structured around hiding the actual costs. It's a population that's always trapped in a reactive mode, rather than having the maturity to sit back and take a longer view.

For more specific tools, attack and defense of running systems. We're good at it already, so are other countries. That's the weak spot, the battleground. Getting to every last corner of some dead terrorists' device is just a side-show; they should already have the communications metadata they need to hunt down anyone else they were working with.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 11:19am PT
Jeremy B.,

It seems you do not know much about small cells and detecting them. You did poorly on answering what tools National Security could use.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:24am PT
Look harder Dingus, you're a reasonably smart guy and it's a simple concept,

Yeah and what 2 ski said, but was not first to say, Werner, they're just bullys asserting themselves. This is not news.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:26am PT
The feds already have the call records, the texts, the emails, heck, they even have the shooters. For that matter, they probably have recordings of the calls. The FBI doesn't exactly have a sterling record of not abusing the public's trust so I'm not particularly inclined to extend more just because their PR folk have switched from "it's for the children" to "the terrorists are coming".

They also have the most recent iCloud backup to the phone in question.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:27am PT
From a few months ago:
Security Experts Oppose Government Access to Encrypted Communication

SAN FRANCISCO — An elite group of security technologists has concluded that the American and British governments cannot demand special access to encrypted communications without putting the world’s most confidential data and critical infrastructure in danger.

A new paper from the group, made up of 14 of the world’s pre-eminent cryptographers and computer scientists, is a formidable salvo in a skirmish between intelligence and law enforcement leaders, and technologists and privacy advocates…

In the paper, the authors emphasized that the stakes involved in encryption are much higher now than in their 1997 analysis. In the 1990s, the Internet era was just beginning — the 1997 report is littered with references to “electronic mail” and “facsimile communications,” which are now quaint communications methods. Today, the government’s plans could affect the technology used to lock data from financial and medical institutions, and poke a hole in mobile devices and countless other critical systems that are moving rapidly online, including pipelines, nuclear facilities and the power grid.

“The problems now are much worse than they were in 1997,” said Peter G. Neumann, a co-author of both the 1997 report and the new paper, who is a computer security pioneer at SRI International, the Silicon Valley research laboratory. “There are more vulnerabilities than ever, more ways to exploit them than ever, and now the government wants to dumb everything down further.”

Here is the white paper itself.

These are many of the people who invented and built the current security infrastructure. With all due respect, Dingus, I'm going to accept their recommendations before I accept the FBI's — or yours.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:37am PT
Meanwhile, here's how much you can trust the FBI on technical matters.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 11:37am PT
Spiny Norman,


This argument seems to have a flaw in it?

SAN FRANCISCO — An elite group of security technologists has concluded that the American and British governments cannot demand special access to encrypted communications without putting the world’s most confidential data and critical infrastructure in danger.

If what Apple knows can open the phone, then a traitor could also sell the method of de-encryption[or whatever] to some bank hackers in Nigeria. Or simply then the system cannot possibly be as secure as what they the elite group[how does one get such status?] argues it is.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:39am PT
Read the report, Dingus, not the NYT summary thereof. I already linked it for you.

Edit: for your convenience here's a direct download link [PDF].

Abstract

Twenty years ago, law enforcement organizations lobbied to require data and
communication services to engineer their products to guarantee law enforcement
access to all data. After lengthy debate and vigorous predictions of enforcement
channels “going dark,” these attempts to regulate the emerging Internet were abandoned.

In the intervening years, innovation on the Internet flourished, and law
enforcement agencies found new and more effective means of accessing vastly larger
quantities of data. Today we are again hearing calls for regulation to mandate the
provision of exceptional access mechanisms. In this report, a group of computer
scientists and security experts, many of whom participated in a 1997 study of these
same topics, has convened to explore the likely effects of imposing extraordinary
access mandates.

We have found that the damage that could be caused by law enforcement exceptional
access requirements would be even greater today than it would have been 20
years ago. In the wake of the growing economic and social cost of the fundamental
insecurity of today’s Internet environment, any proposals that alter the security dynamics
online should be approached with caution. Exceptional access would force
Internet system developers to reverse “forward secrecy” design practices that seek to
minimize the impact on user privacy when systems are breached. The complexity of
today’s Internet environment, with millions of apps and globally connected services,
means that new law enforcement requirements are likely to introduce unanticipated,
hard to detect security flaws. Beyond these and other technical vulnerabilities, the
prospect of globally deployed exceptional access systems raises difficult problems
about how such an environment would be governed and how to ensure that such
systems would respect human rights and the rule of law.
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 20, 2016 - 11:48am PT
The point of this request is not to get access to the San Bernardino shooters' phones. It's a trojan horse request. What they really want is access to any phone that comes into FBI custody.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 20, 2016 - 12:09pm PT
DM, Benjamin Franklin said:
Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
, not you, clearly.
Jeremy B.

climber
Northern California
Feb 20, 2016 - 12:15pm PT
Dingus, small cells are by their very nature hard to detect. Often the detection is from that same "basic policework"; particularly with jihadists there is not much funding or long term training available. That often means they stick like a sore thumb during the preparation and surveillance phase of the attack cycle. An alert patrol officer, store clerk, or community member is more often how the detection happens. Drilling into encryption is just part of the after-action cleanup, unless it's a TV show.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
What they really want is access to any phone that comes into FBI custody.

The technology race between criminals and cops has been going for several centuries.

It seems the gents that wrote that report don't know the hand that feeds. There would be more encrip employment the sooner this method fails.

john prine -- ...it's blow up you cell phone... and find Jesus on yur own.
John M

climber
Feb 20, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
If what Apple knows can open the phone, then a traitor could also sell the method of de-encryption

The above is false.. what Apple says is.

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.

So the argument is about the government wanting Apple to change what it does and create a back door. A back door makes a device vulnerable to hackers. Its not about that information on that phone because Apple can not get to it. Its beyond Apples current reach. Creating a back door makes everything more vulnerable, which is why Apple did not do this. Because you are correct, if they create a back door, then that information could be leaked. Without a back door, there is no information to be leaked because Apple can not access it.

Your argument Dingus makes us more vulnerable. Not less. Encryption is very hard to break. Putting in a back door does away with that level of protection.

This is my understanding of how things stand. I am open to being corrected on my understanding.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
jeremy B,

this seems like a contradiction:

Dingus, small cells are by their very nature hard to detect. Often the detection is from that same "basic policework"; particularly with jihadists there is not much funding or long term training available. That often means they stick like a sore thumb during the preparation
You say:
small cells are by their very nature hard to detect

then you say:
they stick like a sore thumb during the preparation


How can something be both hard to detect and at the same time stick [out] like a sore thumb?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
John M,

I am calling business bull shite talk and a stupid assessment of their statement.

We have even put that data out of our own reach, because we believe the contents of your iPhone are none of our business.

No one hides[destroys?] how they make something unless they never want to make another. And Apple just happens to be in the business of a form of mass production with improvements in mind.

You have been fooled by the rhetoric.
John M

climber
Feb 20, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
no sir... I believe that I understand how encryption is done today.

As I understand it.

The phone is guarded by encryption. The key to the encryption is the person's personal code. Even the stored code on the phone is encrypted. So without the code, the phones information is protected by encryption. Right now one is allowed three tries to break the person's code. After three tries the phone automatically erases itself. So without the code even Apple can not access that information. They did this on purpose so that the phone would not be vulnerable to anyone.

If as you suggest, they made a back door, then that would create a vulnerability because as you say, the information could be leaked and that would be devastating to Apple's credibility. They have nothing to gain by creating a back door and a lot to lose.

What the government is asking them to do is create a back door.
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