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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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ZM originally had an all hook belay.
It absolutely did not!
I just texted Peter Mayfield about it. He said all the anchors were bomber and safe.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:29am PT
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So Style, eh?
El Cap has been climbed free and in a day and every route has been climbed faster than 98% of the climbers who climb them now.
So, What is style?
My Opinion of good El Cap climbing style these days is pretty simple.
1) Don't f*#k up the route. Leave no trace and maybe clean it up a bit.
2) Don't f*#k up anyone else's experience. Don't forget that their experience is every bit as important as your experience.
Done deal, that's all that matters.
Don't forget that no one can define anyone else's experience. If someone jugs the lines to Heart and starts the Shield from there? Who cares?
If someone raps in and works a few pitches? if they don't screw up anyone else's experience, who cares?
Only your ego makes you care about their experience and makes you feel that you have the right to define it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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Have nothing of value to add to the discussion, but want to point out this forum is monitored by all sort of people who work for the park. One superintendent who doesn't like climbers saw/could/will likely see this and we all may end up with rules no climber would want. Lets try to keep topics that could lead to action which could affect all the climbers in the park in the circle of those who climb up there. I respect Mikey's statement, but the best way to support it, is to actually pick up the trash when you see it. Not blowing the sh#t all over the internet. Finding out who stashed the gear and pointing out that it is not ok, for an extended period of time could also be helpful.
Events such as the Face Lift and local climbers picking up random trash will lead to a cleaner park. Internet threads, such as the dumbass thread Sloan has started (where he asked for donations in order to replace the rope in the Alcove with a new one), lead to park officials having the need to act and shut down the party. The rope was donated to him by a pro climber, than taken down by the rangers, because they saw the dumbass thread. If you guys want more rules, regulations and interference from the park, carry on and start more threads. If you don't, lead by example.
In my opinion, the thread about the added midway anchor shouldn't have made it to the internet. You see it, you find out why, you discuss with elders if you don't feel confident making the decision yourself and remove them. No need for Internet fuss or bitching to the Rangers. More bitching = less freedom.
PS: sport crags don't usually have stashed gear, fixed ropes and a bunch of trash. Most normal sport crags at least...people don't usually vertical camp at sport crags neither. Apples and oranges.
My Opinion of good El Cap climbing style these days is pretty simple.
1) Don't f*#k up the route. Leave no trace and maybe clean it up a bit.
2) Don't f*#k up anyone else's experience. Don't forget that their experience is every bit as important as your experience.
Yup. +1
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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Excellent post, Mark, but I have a quibble: your items of "style" should all be elements of ethics. To me, style is optional. The style in which I climb is my own business. In contrast, the ethics I employ climbing affect others, and therefore become a standard of conduct for more than just myself. Your elements of style have at their root the desire to act in a way that does not unduly interfere with others. We all should follow those elements, not just you.
John
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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If the rangers took down the alcove swing then any fixed line should also go.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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thanks, W.L., it won't be often.
John, yes, I agree.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:59am PT
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Iv'e always have been surprised that the NPS has allowed fixed ropes on El Cap and elsewhere given the draconian measures they employ to enforce camping regulations.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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I bet those fixed lines on east ledges and to Mammoth terrace have and will be used for numerous rescues on El Cap. They are not a problem, if maintained. Even though I wouldn't personally give a flying sh#t if they are there or not.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 11, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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In my opinion it is absolutely not required. Interesting comment from someone who apparently didn't send.
Even better, it didn't seem like you wanted to reveal that part until others who had been up there started asking specific questions on your Instagram blog.
This rant comes not long after taking digs at Whittaker's "near flash" ascent of Freerider.
Really all makes you sound petty, jealous, insecure and lacking in talent.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
Bhumi
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Nov 11, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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I would recommend you listen to Chris Mac's interview on the Enormocast folks.
JLP, would you say that type of thing to Mikey's face?
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Nov 11, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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I've climbed on fixed ropes on El Cap. I've also hiked down tons of trash, done maintenance on the East Ledges and made sure to minimize my impact. What we say on Supertopo has little to do with what goes on. The people who DO make the rules. If you're worried about El Cap being a shitty sport crag, chop summit bolts, knock down bivies, sh#t in free link up teams water bottles, take down the East Ledges lines. These things have all been done in the past twelve months. If they get done more often, a new standard will be set.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Nov 11, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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1) Don't f*#k up the route. Leave no trace and maybe clean it up a bit.
2) Don't f*#k up anyone else's experience. Don't forget that their experience is every bit as important as your experience.
Done deal, that's all that matters.
I think you are totally right Mark, which is pretty much par for the course. You've been spending some time up on El Cap lately. Is this actually the style you saw people climbing in? From my recent experience it wasn't. I got rapped over 3 times on one day. I arrived to a belay literally a minute after a rappeler had gotten there. He had clipped into both bolts and completely ignored the fact that I need to clip in. I had to force my way into the stance. One pitch higher I ended up waiting at a belay for more people that were rappelling after stashing gear, again very little consideration was given to the fact that I was actually trying to climb, haul and keep the ship moving. I sure didn't get the feeling my experience was every bit as important as theirs.
And Mark you've been to the top plenty lately, how about all the trash and stashed water bottles? Or the windbreaks, cave walls and fire rings that are being built? Doesn't really seem like leave no trace practices to me. Maybe my experience is all just anecdotal and i'm getting worked up over nothing. I'd actually love to sit down and have beer and talk with you about it all. You seem to be one of the most level headed people around. I'm having a party at my place near Smith this weekend if you are gonna be around or maybe at trout creek this weekend.
@JLP- not sure why I'm even bothering responding to you as you obviously just like talking sh#t (which you are actually pretty good at!) But still need to correct you a little. If you read my previous post on IG you'd noticed that I said I TRIED Golden Gate. Ask anyone around the valley and I'm pretty sure they'd say I'm a pretty straight up honest guy. And personally for me, it is more important in the style in which I climb than the outcome. Sure, I could of worked the pitches from the top down and sent. But for me it would of been a compromise and way less of an adventure and challenge. That is still why I go up there. Not just so I can SEND. Maybe I hangout with too many crusty alpine climbers like Donini these days and have heard style matters more than the summit. But you do have one thing right, I do lack talent but thankfully I can make up for that with hard work and tenacity. And i guess you should know that i free climbed el cap 10 years ago ground up leading all but a few pitches. So you'd think if a no talent, petty, insecure midget like me could do it 10 years ago it can't be that hard.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
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And i guess you should know that i free climbed el cap 10 years ago ground up leading all but a few pitches.
mikey, you're talking about the east buttress, right?
:)
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 12, 2015 - 04:59am PT
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^Agree with Vitality +1
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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Mikey,
Yes, I see way too much junk on the wall and on top. I personally haven't been the victim of climber rudeness but I know it happens. To me, leaving fixed ropes on a climb to work the free climbing, leaving bags, leaving bottles, is all rude and inconsiderate and imposing someone else's experience on you.
Who the hell dumps sh#t behind Camp 6? Who the hell leaves their pooptube on top? I think the most beautiful place on earth is the top of El Cap, I am simply astounded when I see the area abused.
We can only do what we can do, clean up what we can clean up, educate those we can educate and be a good example.
(And btw, you ain't more of a midget than me, and I didn't think Freerider was that hard either (even though I didn't do it, ((but I'll be back)) and can't figure out why people need to clog up the route to work it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 12, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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That's a real bummer you had to share El Cap's 2nd busiest route with a few other people climbing it differently than you, Mikey. I've never had an issue, myself.
While you're slamming Sloan and name dropping Donini and claiming old school ethics and what not - I hear you slammed in a retro-bolt on Salathe so your girlfriend wouldn't have to take a pretty well known fall on the Huber pitch. Then you sold the photos. Seems to me you and Sloan are like brothers.
As for honesty and being forthcoming and claiming ground up ascents and such, it seems to me that there have been more than a few well known and publicized ascents where someone claims this ground up thing, but then it turns out their partner has done it like 10 times after TRing the sh!t out of it, then they led all the hard pitches. Mr Ground Up guy, IMO, just climbed TopRopRider - so sick.
Lastly, Mark, I'd love for you to tell us all about your ethics and how unnecessary those fixed ropes are - AFTER you actually succeed doing the climb another way.
I actually don't have any issue what-so-ever with any of the above - just when you cut into the ethics of others - who may in fact be FAR stronger, better climbers - while not even coming close to walking the talk yourself. In this case, you should just STFU and wait for your chance to be a dick AFTER you DO - ie actually SEND the fuking route - in a better style.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
On the road.
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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I don't really see the need for the STFU, JLP, or the need to call me a dick.
In my two attempts to free climb Freerider I have not used fixed ropes to work any pitch and don't plan to. While actually on the route, we fixed a rope above on a pitch we were working but there were no other parties around. And believe me, if their had been, I would have made sure that they were happy with the situation.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Nov 12, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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JLP- where the hell do you get your info from? A bolt on the Salathe? I actually almost got in a fight with some dude about how that bolt wasn't necessary. I was adamant that it wasn't needed and was very public about that. The climbers that put that bolt in are well known valley regulars but it wasn't me. I've drilled once on El Cap, on the shortest straw after a pool table sized flake came off. You really should do a better job fact checking as it would make your slander a lot more valid.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Nov 12, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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"There is probably a tin mine worth of cans still in that area."
Base104
"Some day you'll be down on your luck and I'll be there to kick dirt down your throat."
Dick Ciley
***
Just for reference, a not-too-dissimilar situation can be found in the quote-unquote backcountry of the Incredible Hulk.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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All I heard from this post was "There's a crap ton of free gear on top of and on El cap, most likely left by unethical rich sponsored climbers" You hear that noobs? Free gear, top of El cap...
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