Vigilante censor, Mark Winans, seeks to shut down Forum

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nature

climber

Boulder, CO

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:13pm PT

While I consider members like TGT and ron to be angry racist old white men whoever this as#@&%e is just outdid them all with this tactic.

Perhaps a group effort is in order - form a letter for your advertisers and we will ALL sign it (stating whoever this asshat is it's complete bullshit). I'll happily include my real name as I'm sure everyone else would. Because if there is one thing for sure, as much as I use greasemonkey to get "rid" of guys like ron and tgt there's one big difference - those guys are at least not such a f*#king pussy to go anonymous like this POS.

And if your advertisers do pull out because of this lowlife maybe let us know which ones so we can let them know personally that we do not support their decision and they just lost another customer.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:15pm PT

The problem is not with the complainer, the problem is with the lack of moderation.

Canyoncat, that statement succinctly states the nature of the disagreement, and I like your ability to focus on the real issue - namely the effect the format of this site has on advertisers.

That said, if I accept your position, I would conclude that if a free discussion offends a voluntary listener, I should limit the discussion to the inoffensive. Such a concept destroys the free exchange of ideas, leads to narrow-mindedness and "group think," and leads to the intellectual impoverishment of participants.

Of course, if the advertisers are too frightened of the offended to risk supporting a site that allows posters to state opinions making some readers uncomfortable, then I guess Chris really has no choice. Nonetheless, my knee-jerk support of free expression causes me to "make the same argument ad nauseum." To me the problem isn't the moderation, it's the intolerant readers.

John

10b4me

Social climber

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:16pm PT

Mr. Winans has told us that he reads the forum every day for 10+ years, but is not a member.

is he a climber?

Although I no longer climb, I would hate to see the site go away. There is good climbing history, and good climbing beta.

Don't want to say I told you so but, I told you so. Once you let the political threads dominate the forum, this is the result.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:18pm PT

Yeah if one complainer can lose you a sponser..I'd think a bunch of supporters would get such wishy washies back.

Hell I'm gunna start writing non-sponsers and boycot them if they don't advertise on ST... ok..not really.. I'm too lazy to do something that dumb.

egads one moron is that effective.. weird.

mtnyoung

Trad climber

Twain Harte, California

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:20pm PT

John,

You're batting 1000 today. What you said is exactly true:

Such a concept destroys the free exchange of ideas, leads to narrow-mindedness and "group think," and leads to the intellectual impoverishment of participants.

By NOT doing this, Supertopo remains different, it stays our of the "milk toast" website rut.

(Due respect to Dingus for using the word as intended, in context.)

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:32pm PT

What a lame tactic.

I just ignore Ron Anderson's posts. You just need the self control to do it, because it's fun to watch a train wreck. Don't jeopardize the forum for everybody.

Come on Mark Winans whoever you are. Man up and just ignore the lame rants of any blowhards. Not just on SuperTopo but in life. Avoid the negative and seek out what makes you happy. You can do it.

Write back to the sponsors you wrote. Tell them you were wrong. That it's your responsibility to avoid what bothers you, it's no one else's. I guarantee you that's a better strategy and you'll feel better about yourself.

canyoncat

Social climber

SoCal

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:42pm PT

John, I don't disagree with you at all. I am however a realist, and in the real world, "sponsored" forums are answerable to their sponsors. That's just the way it is with corporations.

There is certainly a place for freedom of speech, but that may not include expecting companies to turn a blind eye (or deaf ear) to racism, religious intolerance, or hate speech. It's just not practical. I just don't engage, so none of it bothers me, but I work for a mega-corporation and they would never tolerate any of that in our workplace (we don't sponsor any forums...LOL). If I were in charge of advertising dollars, it's likely I'd pull the ads too. Who really wants to be associated with that? Seriously guys, stop thinking about through just your eyes as an individual and think of it through the eyes of say, Patagonia or REI?

Chris needs to decide which is more important, corporate $$$ or "freedom of speech". Doubt he gets he to have both, which is why he should be considering this (instead of complaining). But that's just my opinion from The Man and a cube rat.

plund

Social climber

OD, MN

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:45pm PT

I coulda swore we had a Constitution & Bill of Rights in this country!

Stupid speech is protected. Racist speech is protected. Ignorant speech is protected. Dishonest speech is protected. Prejudiced speech is protected. Utterly inane speech that makes everyone dumber for hearing it is protected.

Pretty much everything BUT the old "yelling fire in a crowded theater" is protected; however, nowhere is "freedom from being offended" protected.

If you disagree, then disagree! If disgusted, then move along. Certainly, if ST is so bad, Mr Winans can boycott its sponsors, etc. But don't start slapping paint on the whole lot of us, or attacking CMac personally. That smacks of butthurt and taking one's sense of self-righteousness WAY too far.

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it. (cribbed / paraphrased from somewhere)

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:46pm PT

Too funny.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 27, 2015 - 02:50pm PT

"You are confusing the GOVT preventing someone from exercising their speech, vs. a private entity allowing them to do so on their privately owned platform."

This confusion runs rampant at this Forum.

Ryan Evans

climber

Mammoth Lakes

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:03pm PT

Shoot him

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:11pm PT

I am with Mtnyoung and JElezarian. I am more than willing to send a personal letter to each of the site's sponsors. Let all the voices be heard. Not just one.

Norton

Social climber

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:17pm PT

chris and rj

Just make sure this doesn't affect the naughty Russian slut ads or the Asian slut ads. Those are my favs.

Thanks your pal WTF.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:23pm PT

So " Crankster",, would your ip addy match Winans?

Folks keep asking about the IP address for the Mark guy, but read the OP again--he's not a member of the forum!

Which, to me, seems really odd...

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:28pm PT

I just finished a little on-line shopping.

If you look for anything to buy on the internet, you'll get ads on here promoting what you just looked for.

This afternoon, after reading about Mr Winans, I clicked on a few of those ads.

Now, I'm looking forward to a new Opinel #8 and a Fenix LD 11 flashlight from Knifecenter, a grease filtering system and a lid for a saucepan from Katom Restaurant Supply, and some rechargeable li-on batteries and a charger from B & H Photo.

I'm sending cash to the advertisers - not e-mails.

overwatch

climber

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:33pm PT

The ultimate, huh?

Studly

Trad climber

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:35pm PT

I say give em the boot, the raciest Rong Anderson, the anonymous Crankster who harasses people, Me who climbs to much, nuke em all till they glow...clean this place up and make it the kind of spot you can bring your kids instead of having to watch where you step.

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jul 27, 2015 - 03:35pm PT

CMAC,

As someone pointed out earlier, the claims are not slander. Here are the California jury instructions for a slander/defamation claim:

"[Name of plaintiff] claims that [name of defendant] harmed [him/her] by making [one or more of] the following statement(s): [list all claimed per se defamatory statement(s)]. To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:

Liability

1. That [name of defendant] made [one or more of] the statement(s) to [a person/persons] other than [name of plaintiff];

2. That [this person/these people] reasonably understood that the statement(s) [was/were] about [name of plaintiff];

3. [That [this person/these people] reasonably understood the statement(s) to mean that [insert ground(s) for defamation per se, e.g., “[name of plaintiff] had committed a crime”]];

4. That [name of defendant] failed to use reasonable care to determine the truth or falsity of the statement(s)."

The letter suggests that member of this forum are guilty of certain conduct, but not that your site condones or approves that conduct. This isn't my area of practice, but it may trigger a claim for trade libel or intentional interference with prospective economic advantage. Regardless, I believe it may be worthwhile contacting your advertisers and advising them that your site is primarily one intended to promote and share climbing information. One avenue by which the site promotes information sharing is by means of its Forum. Given the diversity of the people who visit the site, the subject matter discussed on the Forum is not always climbing related. Rather than seek to censor those discussions, the Taco supports every members' First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Given the importance of our freedom of expression, some members may express opinions that others may find objectionable, etc, etc.

For the record, I'm 75% Latino. While some on this site have expressed opinions about issues important to Latinos, I certainly don't view those opinions as represented of the majority of the members or the site in general. People say what they're gonna to say, which is good because, after they've said it, I know the F- to stay away from them. Problem solved.

Good luck with this mess.