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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 27, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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I wanted to let you all know that there is an individual who goes by the name Mark Winans (we don't know if that is his real name) who has decided to take censorship on the forum into their own hands. This person has such a strong hatred for one particular member, that he has started contacting advertisers to convince them to blacklist SuperTopo.
It disturbs us that Mr. Winans has not cited a single post they feel is inappropriate, and the recent login he refers to has not generated any complaint from members to date.
To date, Mr. Winans has contacted more than half a dozen advertisers, claiming that SuperTopo "members promote violence against other Americans." And, that the "level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America."
Here is an example of a recent communication Mr. Winans sent to us:
Like I said yesterday, for every Ron Anderson comment I am sending a boycott letter to one of your advertisers. Today it was Century Link for the first one. He's got several more comments(Surprise!), so I will need to send out several more boycott letters to your advertisers. Attached please find my letter to your sponsors. July 23, 2015
Denver,CO
Dear Sirs and Madams-
I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum. While I of course believe in free speech in our great nation, I see no reason why a commercial platform needs to give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech. Let them get their own website if they want to profess their constant hatred of fellow American citizens. You may not know this, but www.supertopo.com is a website that is oriented towards rock climbers in general, and rock climbers with a connection to Yosemite National Park in particular. It is very influential among a small but hardcore group of outdoor enthusiasts. Please be aware that as long as you continue to advertise onwww.supertopo.com, I will boycott your products and services, and will ask all my friends and acquaintances who rock-climb, run, kayak, mountaineer, hike, bike, backpack to join me in boycotting your company, and will ask them to ask all of their friends in joining me. Thank you for your consideration.
Mark Winans
Denver, CO
We consider these claims slander, and we find the idea of caving in to a vigilante's attempt to extort us into embracing their individual standard for moderation to be distasteful.
But, I need to note that this individual is succeeding in convincing advertisers to blacklist SuperTopo, and that presents a real threat to the long-term viability of continued operation of this site.
We look into every complaint about inappropriate posts, but we have to date not received a single complaint about posts from the recent login Mr. Winans seems fixated on (we believe Mr. Winans is likely referring to the relatively new member Rdog, but we are not sure as he's never clarified which member or what specific posts he feels are inappropriate). This appears to us to be a personal beef of Mr. Winans, which is, to date, not supported by any other member complaints regarding inappropriate content.
What are your thoughts?
Is this how censorship and moderation should work on this site?
Is this an act of courageous consumer activism? Or, an arrogant attempt to impose one person's censorship standards on a community? Or, something else.
Mr. Winans has told us that he reads the forum every day for 10+ years, but is not a member. It seems likely he will read your comments.
Please share your thoughts.
Chris
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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No idea who this 'person' is.
As far as I can tell, Ron A seems to be a fairly normal poster on the ST, if by 'normal' you mean a white, mid-50s mostly former climber with too much time on his hands.
It seems in his more recent STopo incarnation, he's tried to tread a less controversial line. Perhaps the 'Winans' entity is responding to posts from further back.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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There are definitely posts by certain individuals which I find personally distasteful, but as a whole, the community recognizes these things for what they are. We call our own members on their crap, and the overwhelming majority of Supertopo members are tolerant and accepting.
In the case of Latinos, the rants are usually directed against illegal immigrants, not American citizens. Some of these posts are still uninformed and distasteful, and fear based, but not directed against American citizens.
Vigilante censorship? Lame.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum. While I of course believe in free speech in our great nation, I see no reason why a commercial platform needs to give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech. Let them get their own website if they want to profess their constant hatred of fellow American citizens.
Although this is apparently directed towards Ron Anderson's comments, this statement broad brushes the entire forum as producing hate speech and nothing could be further from the truth. If "he's" been following these discussions, then "he" also knows that many are in opposition to Ron's views.
This is a form of coercion, and I think "Mark" is missing the whole point of having open discussions about various topics without censorship. I agree with Survival. What to do about the situation is another question though.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Kind of a bullshit approach, but honestly, I'm surprised this is even a question. This forum was once a valuable resource, particularly for over seas climbers looking for up to date info to supplement your books. That function exists elsewhere now and I can't imagine the cost of having your brands associated w the various lone wolves out there is worth the minimal benefit of increased sales. Personally, I'd have cut the forum about 3 years ago.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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of course they're going to say they are not a member, duh. It could be one of any number of posters because the all- knowing one has ruffled many feathers.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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While I think the occasional post is distasteful, it is absurd to characterize ANY post as promoting violence against any defined group.
It's a lie.
Chris, I'd ask if there was anything individual members could do to counter this inappropriate and offensive attack against the site?
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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I agree and then deal with whatever loss of advertisers that may happen if and when it happens
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Perhaps "Mark Winans" is another alias for that kiwi guy who seems to enjoy attacking the supertopo forum.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
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"Progressives" are always the first to call for censorship. When they can't produce rational defenses of their claims they always react by trying to silence any view not deemed politically correct.
When they have no power they caterwaul like small brats.
Where they have had complete power they march disinters off to re-education camps or worse.
As I understand it advertisers pay for traffic. If this becomes just another boring pc dumbed down site, you'll see that much reduced.
When this type of coercion is surrendered to it only encourages more of the same. Let it get started and it will never end.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
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Chris, this is your business, and your site, so I'll understand whatever decision you make, but I'll express my opinion nonetheless. The relative freedom to express opinions on this site - whether on climbing topics or elsewhere - makes it particularly valuable. The whining of this particular individual mirrors the attack on diverse opinions I see elsewhere in society generally.
I will happily contact any advertiser and tell them that the diversity of opinion, and our relative freedom of expression, keeps me on this site rather than on others. It would help me to know each communication "Winans" sends, however, so that I can see if any advertisers act with spinelessness or intolerance of true diversity of viewpoints, and treat them accordingly.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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Ron, while we may disagree with some things you write, I DO NOT agree with you leaving the site. You also make valuable contributions, and have unique insights to share.
I feel strongly about you not leaving, and the blackmail not working. If it does, it is only the first in a series that will happen. If it stops here, then it is stopped.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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But, I need to note that this individual is succeeding in convincing advertisers to blacklist SuperTopo, and that presents a real threat to the long-term viability of continued operation of this site.
It sounds like ignoring "Mark" has already been tried.
And Clint, I suppose it could be the "Kiwi", but given his recent incarceration it seems unlikely as his MO seems unchanged.
Seems to me there are a number of options;
1) Stay the course (and try to convince Mark to leave the site alone).
2) More heavily filter the Forum's discussions
3) Get rid of the Forum
4) Get rid of the Forum except all climbing related topics.
missing any?
edit; John E had a good one on previous page
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Wow, Mr Winans clearly doesn't visit any news sites that allow for comments. Those typically get so bad that the kindest one of the bunch could often be considered the worst I've seen on Supertopo. If a bad ST post is a 3, I often see 8 and 9's on news sites, it's embarrassing to read some of them are so bad. Perhaps as news sites, in Mr Whinners views, they are allowed to have free speech but as climbers we are not allowed the same?
I've been here for a long time, and although I've seen some interesting things: people have called each other "Nazi", "Racist", "Libtard" or any number of slurs during a passionate discourse on a topic, I have not seen this alleged racism.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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So in Crankase's view opinions need a sanctioning body.
Proved my point.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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TGT takes it straight to "progressives" and re-education camps, sheesh, what a pre-school.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Many of Rpn's comments go way, way, way beyond what any reasonable person of any political party would consider politically incorrect.
Crankster, many reasonable people of both major political parties find political "correctness" or "incorrectness" absurd, anti-intellectual, and violative of the free exchange of ideas. When I first heard the term - in the late 1970's - it was offered in dirision. It ("politically correct") denoted an opinion that did not deviate from predictable left-of-center views, and therefore offered nothing new to the discussion.
John
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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He's full of crap Chris. But I get your point that you might not be able to ignore him.
If you will allow it, I would be willing to compose a letter/email for me to send to your advertisers; me as an individual consumer and Supertopo forum user.
My letter would be polite and professional. The gist of the letter would be that I too am a gear user/purchaser and I too am a Supertopo forum member. I would emphasize to your advertisers that, in my opinion, this "Mark" guy is an anonymous coward who is inventing tales designed to hurt Supertopo. I would make it clear that Supertopo is a great site for vigorous discussion by climbers of topics of interest to them.
Such a letter would ask them to completely disregard this anonymous and untrue set of claims.
I would use my real name and address to each advertiser and invite them to contact me to verify that I am real.
I will not do this, however, unless you are OK with it; it is your site (thank you by the way) and they are your advertisers.
Feel free to contact me privately (or here) if you are OK with me taking this step.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Chris, which advertisers acquiesced to Winans' request to boycott ST?
Thanks.
John
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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I wholeheartedly agree with this comment by JEleazarian:
The relative freedom to express opinions on this site - whether on climbing topics or elsewhere - makes it particularly valuable.
Yes, exactly.
And it looks like John posted with a mirror of my idea before I finished typing my own version of it.
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