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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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wow jody. i mean jenny. that was quite a lecture. in a god (i mean good) way.
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Ouch!
climber
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Hawkeye, can't be Jody unless it is just copied from someone else.
Can you imagine Jody using the word "ontological"
LOL!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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I think believing in god is a positive thing for some and negative for others.
The man that does not litter because he thinks it a sin is doing me a favor.
The man that tries to kill me because I do not believe as he does is my enemy.
When one believes in a kind and generous god that does not condone senseless violence towards others, I have no problem sharing this world with them.
When a man invokes god's name in order to reason away his hateful acts, I refuse to accept his existence.
I believe in a higher power that has saved my life more than once and I believe I am responsible for my actions while I visit this planet.
I believe in a personal god that may be nothing more than a cool breeze or as much as a natural disaster.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Fastest growing religious identification in the U.S.: Atheist and agnostic.
Anders
edit: damfino
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Ouch!
climber
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Chiloe...LOL!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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I have to laugh, this is like a latenight college dorm, talking about the same subject.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Hawkeye and Ouch:
Jody is a mainline conservative Protestant. Jennie is Mormon( a NON-protestant denomination) Mormon's do not subscribe to the concept of knowing the existence of God through logic (alone).
If you read the first and last paragraphs of my post I noted that the body of the discourse contained the mainline Christian's logicians attempt at justifying God's existence with LOGIC. (not my logic, but if logic is your way to God, then the logic I presnted as the quintessential Christain logicians view is a pretty sound argument)
Jody can speak for his own position--his views vary substancially from mine. I stated that I did not believe logic was hinge on which the door of God's existence swings. Since Juan question weighed in on the LOGIC angle, I posted the basic, mainline Christian logician position. This statement appears in many places,(books and internet) other than the link Chloe posted.
But please don't stop refering to me as Jody---it means instant notoriety and celebrity for an ST nobody.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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"One being that human beings have innate sense of right or wrong"
"If God doesn't exist, this moral code doesn't exist and consciousness doesn't exist."
These two statements are contradictory. You probably meant something slightly different. However, the second statement is a false dichotomy. Either A or B. If not A, then therefore necessarily B. Which of course does not offer up explanation C at all.
Logic can be fun.
I am conscious.
I am a person with a moral code.
God does not exist.
Please reconcile these statements as made by a singular individual.
I wanted to get into that big long post about the cosmological argument for the existence of god. Also the ontological and de-ontological.
Quite simply our language is filled with metaphysical meaning. We can't get away from it. It is in metaphor. However, why? I'm not worried about people believing in a faith or god. I'm worried about people using that faith to rise to power as an elected official blowing sh#t loads of money and good soldiers dying for a country that instead of eliminating terrorism, now explicitly has created a cause celeb for it. Iraq as the poster child for terror recruitment. Further, the politicizing of 'the war on terror' and not helping the Afghani gov't recover is down right reprehensible.
oh crap, I'm sorry. this is not a climbing post. drawn into it again. damn.
late
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Blight
Social climber
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Being an atheist is a lot like being single.
You spend an astonshing amount of time and effort telling everyone, over and over, that, really, you’re perfectly happy being single.
You keep telling everyone how great it is to be free to do whatever you want.
You say that it’s great not being answerable to anyone.
You say that you can just play the field, have a little of everything without all the burdens and responsibilities.
You say that it’s just terrific not to have to go to the parents’ house on Sunday.
You even take take the time and effort to laugh or sometimes tut and shake your head sadly, when you see folks who aren’t single arguing.
Some particularly bitter singletons even go out of their way to harangue and pressure people they know who are in relationships, telling them that the single lifestyle would be so much better and they should dump that baggage and be free.
But you know and everybody knows that if you’re single for life, you’re going to miss a whole world of fulfilment and reward which can only ever come from a long-term stable relationship based on a serious commitment.
Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be. It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain. Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all. It can’t. Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Atheism creates nothing, does nothing and leads nowhere. It has no value, no reward and no benefit, because it is nothing.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Because the ones they trusted only spilled the beans about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be. It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain. Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all. It can’t. Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Or, it is the ultimatte path to fufillment, puts the onus on you, no lollygaging on the rules.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be."
Can you explain how you know that I live a empty life without even knowing me?
"It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain."
Can you please explain what you mean with this? Are you saing that atheists dont use there brains? That philosophers like Bertrand Russel didn't think?
"Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all"
Once again what is the connection with ateism and doing nothing? Here is a list of atheists,
http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm,
are the famous because the did nothing?
"It can’t."
I think this is kind of true. Doing nothing is not a good way for fullfilment. I dont see the connection to religion, atheism though.
"Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
??
"Atheism creates nothing, does nothing and leads nowhere. It has no value, no reward and no benefit, because it is nothing."
What do you mean? Are you saing that atheism dont exist? In that case why?
Are you saing that atheists dont do anything good? I have to disagree with you in that case. I just think for example Einsteins has done quite a lot for the world.
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Blight
Social climber
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There's nothing complicated about this:
An atheist may have a fulfilling life, but the filfilment must come from something other than their atheism. Atheism provides nothing, because it is nothing: it is literally "a-theism", that is without a god". A space where God is in other's lives, a self-created gap which has no function of any kind.
By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you?
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!".
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Scary Sh1t, D-know.
"By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you?
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!"."
Wow an agenda! feeling a bit weak in your confidence, blight? Shout louder.
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raymond phule
climber
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"An atheist may have a fulfilling life, but the filfilment must come from something other than their atheism."
True and well put. But is it possibly to have a fullfilling life based on faith without doing something? Is the only advantage with faith that you can do nothing and still have a fullfilling life? If so is that a good thing?
"Atheism provides nothing, because it is nothing: it is literally "a-theism", that is without a god"."
It might not provide something but it also give you the opportunity to not live your life under a religion. I belive this is a god thing.
"A space where God is in other's lives, a self-created gap which has no function of any kind."
I am more a beliver in that some people has a gap that needs to be filled by a God and that atheist dont have and never had this gap that needs to be filled.
"By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you? "
A lot of assumptions. I dont care what people belive in if it doesn't affect other people. I have never tried to convience someone that God doesn't exist but I have tried to point out the errors in peoples arguments a couple of times.
Your post was negative against atheists and I belive that it is much more religous people trying to convience atheist that God exist compared to the other way around.
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!".
I dont think this metaphor says anything. A better metaphor is a blind man arguing that light doesn't exist because he cant see. He cant know if there are light or not, his only opinion is to belive. I haven't seen a single argument for the existens of a God that is even remotely conviencing according to me. The blind man hoppfully get some good arguments for the existens of light.
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Blight
Social climber
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I dont think this metaphor says anything.
Well, of course you don't.
You say you don't see that God exists and see no good arguments. But almost everyone else on earth does. Over 90% of all human beings have some kind of religion, based on their own experience which is that God exists.
But just because you don't have that experience, you claim that no-one else can.
Which, of course, makes no sense at all.
I dont care what people belive in if it doesn't affect other people.
Well, you'd want to keep a close eye on yourself then. Four of the top five mass murderers of all time were atheists, responsible for over 100 million deaths. Atheism dwarfs religion in the sheer violence and brutality of its history.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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interesting.
my GF's daughter is (was) atheist, she was raised that way. she is 20 and now has a christian BF.
she is a good person and a good girl. this christian kid did not get it. he asked her "why don't you sleep around, get drunk, etc." "I mean if you dont believe in god, why dont you just go do whatever you want?"
this kid could not believe that someone could have as high (or higher) moral values without god. it was hard for him to fathom that someone would be good because that was the right thing to do. seems like there are many believers out there who think the same way. astonishing.
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