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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
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back in the day you learned from a mentor, seconding climbs and putting your time in scoping out the area. You learned from those more experienced than yourself, and you came to know the realm of you climbing.
someone was there to correct you if you went the wrong way, you followed and learned.
eventually you were out climbing taking along the next generation, you were the mentor, you taught what you knew to those you climbed with...
a guide book, no matter how detailed and explicit, is a very poor substitute for that sort of instruction. Putting "trail markers" invites climbers to stop thinking and "just follow the reflectors," which might work fine if it weren't for the fact that we can't control what happens to a rap route exposed to the elements, to natural rock fall and all the things that happen out there.
the addition of reflectors won't change things if you are trying to make the rap route safe for someone who has no experience at all with it... fixing the rap stations will work as long as it takes someone to be confused, put a sling around the wrong tree and rap into a situation that completely takes them by surprise. unless that sling is removed, it is a sign for all the climbers who come later.
preparation is a big part of performance, and when your life depends on your performance it becomes all the more vital to prepare. giving the Royal Arches rap route the reputation as something you don't have to prepare for will lead to some very bad situations.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jan 30, 2015 - 06:13am PT
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I'm with you Cragman, if you can walk off do it.
This whole discussion of reflectors on rap anchors simply reminds me of how far we've come from where we started. I suppose some folks just didn't get the memo, teach your children well.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jan 30, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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Learn to climb faster and walk off
It's the best part
Rappelling is dangerous!
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herm
Trad climber
Bishop
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:12am PT
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Walk off.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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Does anyone know exactly where on the route this happened and exactly what happened? Untill we know the details maybe we should just do as Tony suggests and add a station between 15 and that offroute station below. Upgrading that station and those unknown stations below that for a direct line to station 19 as shown on Clint's topo. would seem like a good start. From 19 it just a few steps down the ramp to the tree anchor at 20. Just this little modification involves adding 2 bolts and upgrading 6 more. That means 8 bolts with double ring hangers. This is pretty much a one man job unless you take more than 1 rope to work off of. Tony is one of the best bolt replacers and it would still be a long day for him. It is not about hand drilling verses power drilling. Tony probably hand drills a hole in about 15 minutes. Getting in position and getting the old stuff out is what takes the time. One thing for sure, the job will get done. It is on the list now for the 2015 season, if it can be done. There just may be a reason why it was not done this way the first time.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:21am PT
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Did this route as my first long one in the valley, as total multi-pitch noobs. Rapped the rap route, one short rap/pull where the topo warned of possible hangup. And we rapped most of it in the dark. No issues finding stations (yeah, we had to scan the wall for 10-15seconds once), no problems at all really. I've only done the gully when being up there without a rope, NDG sucks and people take the chop there too. I've simul rapped the rap route much quicker than walking off.
It was a perfect formative adventure climbing experience for me and my partner. Just enough to make us learn without being dangerous (with the cavet that ALL climbing and rapping is dangerous to some extent).
So I'd be firmly in the camp of leaving it alone. Knot your ends, and know how to ascend a rope (and have the means to ascend on you at all times during the raps..prussik, slings, shoelaces..whatever). Simples.
That said, reflective paint and reflective adhesive backed sheets are extemely durable. We mark f'in highways with them for pete's sake. However, some reflective materials are made with tiny glass balls in the material...which potentially present problems if using paint on something like a Metolius rap hanger where the rope runs over the paint.
Is rope damage from those glass balls a real issue? I DON'T KNOW!! But I'd sure as hell want to find out before painting a bunch of rap stations.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:23am PT
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Just want to reference once again what was proposed...
in case it's later deleted.
Hilarious!!!!!11
LOL here, WB!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:33am PT
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I'd say put the ammo box at the top next to the first rap anchor so you can't miss it. Either advise people to walk down the gully, or tell them how to not get lost on the rap route.
On the rap route, if there is a particular place people have to be told where to go, you could put something like a 2 inch diameter washer / aluminum disk behind the bolt hanger, with instructions stamped on it.
Why is north dome gully so dangerous? If it's a particular section of it, can you set up a rap anchor there, so people will rap it rather than downclimb?
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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Start the climb early, research the North Dome Gully descent and use that. I don't see the wisdom in planning to do 21 raps, likely in the dark.
I did the route back in the Rotten Log era.
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Jan 30, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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For practical serious advice read John Dill, YOSAR, staying alive
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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N00b team one:
They climb the route and get their rope stuck on the first rappel.
Their rap line is tangled in the anchor but they have their rack and lead line.
They yell for help. It's summer and very warm.
YOSAR boss says you're in for a bivy tonight and we'll get you in the morning.
They cry like little girls ...? Just kidding. :-)
Run up the route casually in 45 minutes and to get to the n00bs sitting there.
I then run back up to their anchor (5.2 rating) from their position, untangle their rope and we rappel to the ground.
I asked why they couldn't climb back up and untangle their rope themselves.
They said "We don't have a topo"
LOL hahaha
N00b team two: Went east at the NDG and ended up rappling into Tenaya canyon until they got lost on their descent and ledged out.
They were rescued also.
N00b team three: One member had no approach shoes, tight climbing shoes and they decided to descent down Yosemite Falls trail.
The guy who was hiking in his tight climbing shoes gave up because of pain and sat up at the rim and yelled for help.
He was heard at the SAR cache and could be seen from there.
Sar had to go hike up there and give him some shoes to get down after this guy spent two days up there.
Three different descents from three different parties ...... :-)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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"We don't have a topo"
The source of all troubles: Topos.
But topos are not going away and legions of gym climbers, inspired by Dawn Wall vids will be unleashed on the Valley this season. Good luck SAR.
Perhaps reflectors AND paint yellow lines on the rock so you can follow them up and down.
Fixed rebar and cables and turn the Royal Arches route into a sweet via ferrata to accommodate the hordes. The Yosemite Rock Climbing Experience sponsored by Black Diamond, Adidas Outdoor and Red Bull. Join the conga line.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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^^^^+100 on the suggestion to chop the rap route^^^^
it is ultimately just a convenience after all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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+100 on the suggestion to chop the rap route
Do that and many would just downclimb the route, I would.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:27am PT
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suggestion to chop the rap route
It doesn't solve problems.
It changes the problem and a new set of problems will arise.
Problems, rescues, life and death will always remain .....
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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I love the idea of standardizing the rap. Either for one 60m or 2 60m's.
Regardless, I personally will continue to use the walk-off. What's the hurry to get down, anyway?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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WB, any chance you remember who posted that signage down the false gully before Washington column. There's a pic of it somewhere, once upon a time I was looking for it and couldn't find it. Or where its posted?
btw, what's the name of that false gully? (I suppose I could look.)
If there's an issue with the NDG option, it's probably at this false gully that cliffs out. Esp after nightfall. (I would think some kind of sign around that location where the trails get crazy could help. Maybe.)
Would love to see a pic again of that signage though.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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My vote is for rap route ushers. Kinda like vallet's. Hired and payed for by the climbing team themselves. Stationed at the top of chosen route ready for service.
Create jobs and save lives in one shot.
BS, aside, it's really horrible that climbers die because of accidents like this. This young man sounds to have been an amazing person. His passing just plain sucks. The solution however is not reflectors or markers of any kind.
On this particular climb, it's my opinion, that the rap route itself is the problem. As said up thread, when there is a walk off, best to use it. For decades there were no rap anchors in place. Probably should've stayed that way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 30, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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So KP, would you be angry if you encountered a couple climbers then downclimbing the route? Just curious.
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