The 4 people who climbed Wings of Steel talk (Video)

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The Wolf

Trad climber

Martinez, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2014 - 04:42pm PT

This was posted on Mountain Project yesterday.

By Jim Logan
1 day ago
When I made the first small wide base hooks (Leeper/Logan hooks) I imagined someone doing a climb that is exactly Wings of Steel. I always thought it was terrifying to go out multiple hook moves on those things as they would stay on little edges that were at the breaking strength of the rock and you never knew when the rock was going to explode and send you plummeting. It is very committing climbing. Congratulations to all of you for pushing the limits of slab climbing. I'm sorry the community in the Valley at that time was so insular. Jamie Logan

nah000

climber

everyw/here

Nov 22, 2014 - 05:14pm PT

just as certainly as grossman has made great contributions to the climbing pursuit and sounds to be a great person irl, is the certainty that any intended and earned credibility as an objective "historian" has been undermined by the invective he contributed to the online wos drama fest...

never leave the metahistory writing to the warriors...

it's too personal.

Jingy

climber

Somewhere out there

Nov 23, 2014 - 07:01pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

strangely, this reminds me of Climber/SAR workers in the earlier video talking about not wanting to help if they needed rescue...

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Nov 23, 2014 - 07:48pm PT

grossmans axe is pretty sharp by now

Studly

Trad climber

Nov 23, 2014 - 08:05pm PT

You can see the first bolt in this photo. Looked pretty sketch to me.

What a line, following a line of weakness up the Great Slab, classic.

Meaty

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 07:24am PT

"strangely, this reminds me of Climber/SAR workers in the earlier video talking about not wanting to help if they needed rescue..."

Just the exact ridiculous hollow false narrative I was talking about Jingy, not one person on SAR said anything like that around me, just more hype and whine, just another lame assertion. If you believe that then you might believe there were WMD's in Iraq. Your shallow insult is duly noted Jingy. FYI Jingy, the folks in SAR don't make the decision who gets rescued....or how or when.

This is where the filmmaker is pretty hypocritical when he claims it's not about the minutia, his movie has all sorts of slander flowing but somehow he doesn't notice? Dish out the slander and narrowly focused false narratives but then wonder why it's questioned, pretty weak. When people like Jingy try and equate the SAR folks in the Valley during that time with an extremely horrible white supremacist it's rings hollow when you claim you're not interested in whole story while the slander still flows here.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Nov 24, 2014 - 08:20am PT

Dimitri Barton = Meaty,

Before you accuse a filmmaker of lying, in a film you have evidently not yet seen, why don't you:

1) Watch the movie

2) Watch the interview after the end of the movie. It is not in the movie itself, but rather one of those "additional features" that you find at the end of many DVD movies

3) Listen on that additional feature where a member of SAR at the time specifically states that had Mark and Richard needed a rescue, the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them, and that they would have left the Wings of Steel team up there TO DIE.

4) Report back here after you have heard with your own ears.

Jeff didn't make this stuff up, dude - it's a FILMED INTERVIEW in the movie.

P.S. In the possible event that you have seen the movie itself, go back once more and this time don't miss the part at the end, because this is the part that is relevant.

Meaty

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 08:30am PT

Pete, just give it a rest with your demands I do what you say, pretty silly.

"3) Listen on that additional feature where a member of SAR at the time specifically states that had Mark and Richard needed a rescue, the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them, and that they would have left the Wings of Steel team up there TO DIE."

Sorry chump, I never heard that silly lie/assertion previously. I was on the team and I never said anything close and would have never supported that jive, but keep the hype alive Pete, you weren't there and just like everyone else spewing hype and whine you're just repeating the very narrow focus in the movie. Propaganda works on feeble minds.....that person speaks for himself and not everyone on the SAR site at the time.....whine, whine whine...Pete!!

Did say the filmmaker was lying? It's a lie to say I did.
An interview in the movie doesn't make anything said fact, so keep squirming Pete.
Again, the climbers on the SAR site do not decide who gets rescues, just another silly completely false narrative that pervades this movie.

Meaty

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 08:36am PT

Warbler...
It's pretty simple for me to defend myself from the slander, if you call it drama so be it.
To accuse those of us on SAR of refusing to rescue people is downright pathetic.....and a flat out lie. It makes for some great hype in select feeble minds to help sell a lame movie.. So excuse me for setting the record straight.

Meaty

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 09:38am PT

Kevin,
I m not saying your focus is on me but drama for you may be serious slander and libel for others, just saying....It's not drama for me, hasn't been for a very long time and I m not gonna take the sander sitting down. If you and others just shrug it off I don't really care, but I will continue to set the record straight no matter who wants to listen, ... or not.
I consider the very shallow accusation that the SAR climbers would refuse to rescue these two as horrible as the slander gets here in Supertopo, quite an achievement.

MisterE

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Nov 24, 2014 - 09:41am PT

try and equate the SAR folks in the Valley during that time with an extremely horrible white supremacist

Not to take away from the breezy narrative here, but WTF is this all about?

Meaty

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 09:42am PT

BJ....that was indeed NOT the talk of the time. Again, I was on the team, never heard that jive from anyone. If someone told
Steve that story so be it, but in no way whatsoever was it the talk during that time.It's hype, it's whine, it's makes a good story with victim cards raining down....
I m not going to sit back and be slandered by some of you, just not going to happen...again!!

My point is this movie has created far more hype and whine and slander based on horrible lies and false narratives than the previous threads here in this forum.
If the filmmaker producing a movie that helped create this lame slander hype and libel want to avoid harsh well deserved criticism, perhaps they would have chose to include someone that was actually there to verify that sort of serious accusation.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Nov 24, 2014 - 10:20am PT

I brought up the "discussion" mentioned in the film to illustrate the level of ill will that existed at the time regarding these guys and their actions. Of course I was there at the time to have this discussion.

When you step into a helicopter, rappel to the edge or take on a rescue situation you incur risk to help someone else in need as a matter of service. Prior to this situation, I had never felt the need to weigh that risk on a personal level as I also pointed out.

This discussion was not a vote to boycott or deny these guys a rescue as Pete keeps trying to portray it. It was a frank discussion among a few of us involved in SAR. If the call had actually come in, John Dill and the rest of the SAR staff would certainly have gone and done their best and I would have likely done the same as a matter of policy having rendered aid to those in need many times before without any such reservation.

WBraun

climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 10:29am PT

the SAR team would have refused to have gone up there to rescue them

Such bullsh!t.

People run their mouth all the time.

When actual action time comes around mouths stop flappin their bullsh!t becomes mute.

YOSAR is not run by some climbers in Camp 4 ever.

It's run by NPS Law Enforcement the NPS Protection Division.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Nov 24, 2014 - 11:15am PT

Jeff - can you please upload the Steve Grossman interview as it appears on the DVD after the end of film?

Then, Dimitri and everyone else can hear and see what Steve said, and you don't have to take my word for it.

I suppose I could go find my DVD, listen to what Steve said, and quote it here, but I'm sure it would be far more effective to upload that segment.

Al_Smith

climber

San Francisco, CA

Nov 24, 2014 - 11:34am PT

I honestly have no horse in this race, but the last interview with Steve Grossman at the end of the film demands some elaboration/clarification...

First we get Ammon's final word on his experience on the SA:

Ammon: 'It was a good solid route, they did a really good job. It was hard, challenging...what they reported is pretty much spot on, and what people thought about the route is not at all what the route is."

Then, Grossman: "At one point on the Supertopo, Pete Zabrok asked me the question:...'Look Steve you are on these guys really hard. What do you want out of them?' And my response was, 'Well, for starters I'd like an admission from Richard that he would do things differently knowing what he knows now. Pretty simple, pretty fundamental stuff.'

I think it would help to get clarification on what Steve wants and why he thinks something is owed to him personally? If its 'pretty simple, pretty fundamental stuff' it should be easy enough to clarify what you think they should have done differently. Arguably the single greatest modern aid climber just completed the SA and said they did a good job and reported honestly what they did on the route.

We get that you don't like the route and that you find it unaesthetic. I'm sure there are others who find massive slabs and run-out hooking to be fascinating. Obviously that is a really small group of individuals but I don't see how else that slab would have been climbed. Its not as though there was a free climb waiting to be had, and pending some serious geologic transformation, there wasn't going to be perfect splitter cracks just appearing out of no where on the King Slab. So, if someone was going to climb it, then it would have to be what it is. Its clearly no bolt ladder. Do you also dislike Hall of Mirrors? Marginal? Should the FAs have had to check with you first if it was ok to climb those routes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just trying to understand your point of view now that a first-hand account providing a second opinion is available.

Do you think Richard should apologize for not making friends with the 'locals' first? Or is it that you'd like them to apologize for doing an FA on El Cap despite not being locals (reminiscent perhaps of the Ed Cooper and the Dihedral Wall?) Claims that they were 'not ready' or 'incompetent' should now clearly be dismissed given Ammon's reporting, right?

When you mention in an interview in the film that you have limited climbing time and didn't want to waste it climbing the route, I have to assume you yourself believe that statement, but also understand from an outsider's perspective that it sounds odd that someone who has vehemently hated the climb itself and the FAs for 30 years would not want to at least check out if their own feelings were based on fact. If I was as obsessed with a route as you have obviously been with WOS, and I was capable of climbing it, I would have done so or do so now.

I understand and empathize with your desire to keep people from putting up routes in sacred places like Yosemite (or anywhere for that matter) in poor style or in ways that unnecessarily damage the rock or fall too far outside of the prevailing ethic in an area as self-policing seems to for the most part protect a resource best by applying a local user group's first hand knowledge of the best ways to install or avoid fixed protection etc given the available geologic and environmental constraints.

But, in this case, it seems that they used no more enhancements/fixed protection etc than was absolutely necessary to get up the route and in fact it was sparse enough to lead to a high number of falls (some quite long) by one of the greatest aid climbers who has ever lived.

I think the 'saga' is overall pretty silly. (Easy for me to say as I wasn't a participant with all the real time fog of war, feelings, etc.)
But unless we are missing something still at this point, it would seem that the whole controversy amounts to little more than:

a) Outsiders vs. Locals use of a resource
b) Prideful behavior on both sides
c) Conflating a personality conflict between a half dozen people with a community wide frustration/situation (hence the currently refuted comments you made re: SAR's feeling on the matter. Last I checked, the meeting between SAR, M & R, and the disgruntled other climbers resulted in the Park Service and SAR telling the guys to get on with their climb and for everyone else to cool it. So appealing to the community with 'even SAR thought they were doing a botch job, should be left to die, etc, etc, etc' is not only morally and legally reprehensible (see Meaty's and Werner's comments) but also is encouraging group think by appealing to some authority on the subject without it even being the case.)
d) An unpopular route going up on a feature on a largeeee piece of rock that offers similar climbing on everything but that particular feature
e) Human beings by and large enjoy being spectators to drama whether they care or not which party proves to be 'correct' and so are willing to watch this one play out, popcorn in hand

It seems that this is still ongoing is not the result of the community being upset forever but you being upset forever and being very vocal about it.

I'll finish by saying that I attended the Oakdale Festival a few years back and had an absolute blast and thought you did a killer job and am super grateful to you for all of those efforts. Mark and Richard are not people you happen to like. But isn't all of this vehement hand-wringing serving to diminish you in the eyes of the very community that you love so well and work so hard to protect and preserve?

Why not just say, 'I may have gotten it wrong. I still don't like the climb or the fashion they did it in. I think respecting local climbers and the prevailing ethic is something that is important in my values, and I'm not going to be able to see that any other way. I wish the climb didn't exist, but it seems that the rumors I had heard about the style or their competence have been discredited."

You could put that out there, leave it at that and get back to all the great work you do for the community (including creating awesome opportunities for people like me to see luminaries and pioneers of our sport speak about their adventures, etc) and keep your reputation in tact. By all accounts from people that know you, you are a great guy and an amazing climber. Why continue to carry this torch that should have long ago been extinguished?

Either way, I expect to be attacked for stating this opinion as I'm a climbing-nobody, without an impressive resume when it comes to serious Aid climbing on the Big Stone. I also don't know the people involved personally so don't really have the right to comment.

But isn't that the same thing we are seeing here? People who didn't do the route, talking about the route, and talking about the climbers?

If one needed to know the people or the route first hand to have an opinion (which is what this basically amounts to) then why continue to make it the 'drama of the century.'

Ok, end of rant. Just one random guy's unsolicited opinion... I've followed this story as a lurker for a long time and couldn't help but comment.

Studly

Trad climber

Nov 24, 2014 - 11:38am PT

I don't think anyone for even a second thinks that SAR would have refused to rescue anyone. Yes, the comments certainly add to the drama, but Even the most distant observer I don't think would ever contemplate YOSAR not responding. So Meaty you can calm yourself. On another note, who knew Avery Tichnor? The guy was a Becom Rock local up here in Washington, and went on to the Valley, but left a legacy of really hard scary climbs at Beacon. What happened to him, and did he do any first ascents in the Valley? Local old timers say he was a might crazy and wild!