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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2003 - 01:47pm PT
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Ditto me too, I'm with Greg's response.
If your replacing old bolts with new ones, you have to decide what to take and what to leave. If the bolts aren't part of the original FA (or if they are but are in a bad place and the FA agrees that they should be gone...), then, pull and patch, nice. Make the route cleaner.
It think what the ASCA is doin' is a great service. FA folks "usually" won't make or take the time (for whatever reason) to maintain "their" routes...so, its nice other folks are.
Thanks!!
Brian in SLC
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Aug 13, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Russ,
I had a decent SAT score, but I can never figure out what Melissa is talking about either.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2003 - 03:09pm PT
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That Melissa is a smarty...but...I never took the SAT (ACT I think, and did ok)...
I think its good that the ASCA does more than just bolt replacement on a route. After all, there they are. If there are especially old, unsafe and unnecessary bolts which weren't part of the FA, why not get 'em outa there?
Writin' my check to the ASCA as we speak...
Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
some other life
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Aug 13, 2003 - 07:38pm PT
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Russ Walling, owner of the Fish Tank, you and your free booze are evil. I'm still hung over from the Phoenix Bouldering Comp from 2002. Evil, simply evil :-). Oh, my friend in the green fish hat also thinks you are evil. But don't stop, no no, don't stop. The more people the merrier.
I'm leaning towards the Greg side of things on this one though I will admit I do very much see where Dingus is coming from . I cannot say his stance has no validity.
SAT, ACT, fuzzy... It all is clear to me now.
VLP!!!!
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 13, 2003 - 08:25pm PT
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Um...I guess I was agreeing w/ Dingus and Greg. Since different ASCA $$$ donators are going to have different ideas about what constitutes an "unnecessary" bolt, I think it would be less controversial (i.e. expensive) if "Greg" chopped bolts and the "ASCA" replaced them.
Russ, if your SAT was lower than mine you must have been trying to do poorly. I guess I edit my posts for clarity until they are a confusing run-on bunch of garbage sometimes.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Aug 14, 2003 - 12:12am PT
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I like to leave the controversial bolts alone.
To explain why ill break out a little asca history…
The first time i replaced a bolt was on chopping/cleaning mission. Singer and I went up on Zenyatta Mondatta in 1997 with the goal of "restoring the route to its original condition." We chopped about 5 lead bolts, removed 90+ copperheads, and removed about 30 bolts from belays replacing them with 13 3/8”
We were all fired up on our job well done and decided to do the same to the PO Wall a month later. Just as we were getting ready to blast off we realized we left the canned Manderin Oranges in the car so I ran back to the Meadow. There I saw some people racking up for the PO and warned them “I hear the PO wall has been cleaned, you might want to bring some extra heads.” At which point one of the climbers turned red and, not knowing who I was, said “F*#k. It must be that dammed Chris Mc…McWhatever screwing up another route!”
Being a total wimp, I took that as my cue to walk away as quickly as possible.
After about 8 pitches of cleaning heads Singer said he wasn’t into this whole cleaning heads and chopping bolts thing anymore and on pitch 10 I began to agree. For the rest of the climb and ever since then I have been more into just replacing bolts then trying to alter routes back to what I consider the FA condition.
There is so much work that needs to be done at climbing areas: replacing non-controversial bolts, picking up trash, minimizing trail erosion, keeping good relations with land managers. At the same time, there is so little time among the very few volunteers that do this work. I think the most efficient use of time and energy of anyone who is trying to give back to the climbing community is to stay away from controversy. Sure it’s a dodging a tough issue, but doing so allows more time and energy for the type of work that all climbers can benefit from.
I’m glad that in the nearly 5000 bolts the ASCA has replaced probably less than 1% have been controversial. I think its because we generally avoid entering into controversy that we are able to get the support to replace so many bolts.
So, all that said. I'm glad that Greg disagrees with me. When different views are present in an organization, it leads to better and more critical discussion and, hopefully, wiser actions.
I'm personally glad those OZ bolts are gone. One of the best 5.10 cracks in tuolumne is now ever more aesthetic. i'm also glad it wasn't anyone associated with the ASCA that chopped them.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 17, 2003 - 10:28pm PT
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OK Dingus, you caught me - our "official chop list" is only in my head, currently consisting of 10 bolts on 3 routes that the FA/FFA has confirmed that bolts were added/from the aid ascent and not wanted. Namely, Braille Book and North Buttress (not DNB) of Middle Cathedral, and Hyperion at Josh. Since there's no way I'm going up on Braille Book with a hammer and pulling gear anytime soon, and since I'm still looking for a partner for North Buttress (which needs the original bolt replaced), it's not much of an issue. Next winter we hope to do some replacement in the North Wonderland at Josh, and Hyperion supposedly has a broken Leeper hanger on one of the two 1/4" anchor bolts. About 30' below the anchor, at a 3-3.5"" crack section, is a 1/4" bolt from the FA that the FFA (John Long) wants removed. Obviously from pre-cam era.
Also, to be fair, there's a string of old fixed heads at the crux of Tombstone, right across the way, and Yaniro and Leavitt both agree that we ought to clean all of them and replace with a bolt or two (along with replacing all the other 1/4" bolts on the route). So that's on our official "to add" list, although of course we'd be reducing the number of fixed pieces on the climb.
The amusing thing about the whole OZ debate is that I just talked to Mike Waugh, who did OZ just after the FA. That anchor in the corner that just got chopped (and initiated this whole thread) was actually the ONLY ORIGINAL bolted anchor on the whole thing (I suspected that the anchor on top of the crux pitch was not the original anchor that Dale Bard said was there, especially since a couple people told me Walt Shipley added it). Mike thought that the corner anchor should have been pulled since the whole reason it was there was because they were farting around with nuts and small hexes trying to protect the corner, and with modern cams the bolts are unneeded.
So, anyway, that would go towards the concept that no one should be involved in removing bolts since everyone might be wrong about what was original...
Greg
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Aug 18, 2003 - 03:11pm PT
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"there's a string of old fixed heads at the crux of Tombstone, right across the way, and Yaniro and Leavitt both agree that we ought to clean all of them and replace with a bolt or two (along with replacing all the other 1/4" bolts on the route). So that's on our official "to add" list, although of course we'd be reducing the number of fixed pieces on the climb."
Greg:
The Tombstone project is very worthy. I am sure that you will be replacing the bolted anchor/rap on top of the formation as well as it is very dangerous. The Northern Wonderland is still filled with a lot of old 1/4 bolts....
I am in general agreement with removing non-original bolts from routes, even if they have been in situ for many years. At Tahquitz, the bolt on Mechanics Route (which was added on the 4th ascent in the late 30s or early 40s) finally broke a few years back and was not replaced despite nearly 60 years of use; the guidebook rating was changed to R and the history explained.
As I stated in another post, Piece de Resistance has lots of very bad bolts; also, it seems to have a least one protection bolt on the 2nd pitch that was added in more recent times (unecessary as it is next to a crack). Maybe it won't become a trade route, but it would be nice if the bolts were replaced.
Hats off to you for all your hard work; I'll have to make another donation!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 18, 2003 - 03:46pm PT
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Thanks looking sketchy..., Piece is high on the list for Fairview (along with Sea of Knobs area on Sorcerer's, plus a variety of other stuff like first pitch of Fiddler on the Roof). Not sure if we'll get to it anytime soon...
Greg
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DB
Social climber
yosemite
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Aug 19, 2003 - 03:15pm PT
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The bolt choppers real names are;
James C. Lucas and Maxwell Silver Hasson
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Aug 19, 2003 - 04:24pm PT
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What, did you just arrest them or something? Let's see some ID.
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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Aug 19, 2003 - 05:16pm PT
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BCS,
Perhaps your name should be Bolting Cop Sucker.
Your post from several days ago about notifying the authorities and now this latest show that it is you who should be run out of TM.
These issues need to be dealt with within the community. If you are childishly frustrated now because everyone won't do things your way, believe me, it will be much worse for you when your kind of actions lead to more government control of climbing.
We need to keep this war cold. Ideally we should discuss the issues calmly, but if you can't, then add some slander and name-calling (I do), but don't involve the rangers dumbass, because you'll just hasten the day when we have wilderness permits for big walls, a first ascent approval process, an outright ban of bolting in national parks, a certification requirement, etc.
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Aug 20, 2003 - 03:48pm PT
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Loom makes some excellent points that should be noted.
Someone may not agree with the actions of select individuals, but let's take the high road as a group before an agency decides we can't handle ourselves. Broadcasting personal information about people who otherwise have not made it available does not make our group look very good - especially coming from someone who chooses to be anonymous. Let's keep it above board and minimize the geurilla tactics - IMHO it's the best route to credibility and the strongest possible hand in negotiating.
Thanks in advance, and thanks to everyone who weighs in on important climbing issues; that's what makes it a "community".
Mike (Ousley)
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Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Aug 20, 2003 - 04:51pm PT
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Ah, the fruits of being abrassive, arrogant, and an as#@&%e.... Sure have stirred up some interesting debate here on the forum. Though organizations such as ASCA have brought some order to the bolting business, climbing is largely an anarchy. I support a "community" of concerned climbers, as forums such as this have created, however, action must be taken by someone, and it's impossible to please everybody.
I believe in the purity of rock climbing, and though I recognize the necessity of bolts, and use them regularly, I think there should be as few as possible. If I have to take a couple more cams or nuts, that's fine. If I have to walk down in the pouring rain with no approach shoes and two broken arms, well that's just great! As the pioneer of clean climbing, Yvon Chouinard, has said, climbing is about risk. It is a true sport, and one must accept those risks, and deal with the consequences. A storm could roll in, a knob could break, your pro could fail, or you could simply find yourself unable to complete a climb that's at your limit. Every climber is an individual, we don't pay fees, sign waivers, or rely on lottery systems to do what we want, and that is beautiful. Hopefully that never changes.
I (Max) had climbed OZ about a month before the chopping mission, and was appaled by these extraneous bolts. How could one of the most pure corners in the whole park be scarred in such a fashion? Short ropes and archaic equipment were valid excuses 25 years ago, but are inadequate today. If historic preservation is such a concern, why should ASCA replace anything? Lets just leave all rusty bolts and wait until people start dying from anchor failure! Who care's if they're dangerous, I want to see Harding's original stardryves! No, that's rediculous people, and if those bolts hadn't been chopped, I'm sure they would've eventually failed. Furthermore, after all the talk of not researching and consulting with first ascentionists, it turns out Dale wanted them gone! Ha!
Anyway, I apologize if those first anchors were part of someone's route. They were not a part of the plan, but I couldn't let myself leave them there, as there was no apparent route above or below. Also, one can get natural protection in the crack to the left. Someone asked if the first pitch was made safer, but I'm not sure what they mean, as there aren't any bolts, and it can be lead quite safely. The real first pitch anchor, by the way, can be rapped with one rope, which is helpful when waiting behind slow parties.
Greg, Sorceror's Apprentice could certainly use some work. Will and Drew did a great job making it more or less safe, but the job could be finished. I had heard that the one bolt on the 5.9 pitch is not original, and that the FA party went back up to chop it, but got too gripped and ended up using it instead. Also, there is a route not in the guidebook that goes right from the top of the .11a pitch with 3 old bolts. We got off route on this, and I wonder if anyone knows what it is...
Finally, to adress BCS and those of his/her ilk. As much as I love stirring controversy and being referred to as a "hooded vigilante", your responses went a bit far in retaliation. Why any true local would ever notify rangers is quite beyond me, they are our mortal enemies, and collaboration with them should be avoided at all costs. I agree with Minerals and Loom's points on the matter. Why do you post such information about me (not that I really care who knows my name), and then remain anonymous yourself. I am fully prepared to accept criticism about my "controversial" actions, and if it was possible, I would gladly stand up for them in person. However, these weak acts of ill will prove only that you are more of a coward than I.
Well, I don't think I could possibly cover everything I wanted to say, but I sure tried. Long live bolt choppers!
Love,
Max
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 20, 2003 - 05:53pm PT
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"They are our mortal enemies, and collaboration with them should be avoided at all costs."
If by "our" you are talking about climbers or locals, I think Link has more credability as both than either of you.
Here's hint everyone...there is no need to actually call the rangers. Link et al. already read this forum. If you post it here, you've called the rangers.
If you say "hit me" over and over to someone that you've already pissed off, I don't think that you can cry fowl when you get a black eye.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2003 - 05:22pm PT
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Bolt Choppers Suck
for the record my name is not James C. Lucas
It is JAMES CHEWBACCA LUCAS and my father is the original Darth Vader. If you do not succumb to my Jedi Mind tricks then my father will crush you and all your ranger friends.......
with his wallet!
Perhaps I can get an ASCA ruling but I'm 99% positive bolt chopping is not illegal
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 21, 2003 - 05:30pm PT
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Legally, bolts are considered "abandoned property" and it is not illegal to chop them. This has already gone to court at least once.
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boardlasted
Social climber
marin, CA
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Aug 22, 2003 - 11:41pm PT
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Hi!
My names is James C Lucas, my email is:
bigwalljames@yahoo.com
I deserve to get my ass kicked for what I did on Oz.
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Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Aug 23, 2003 - 05:17pm PT
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Arggghhh! I try to calm down and spread the word of reason, but to no avail.
You are all such tools!!!
Dingus, (an appropriate moniker for such a dick) first I would like to know who you are. The highly offensive bolt choppers reveal there identity from day one, yet all you tools continue to remain anonymous, what the f*#k?
I have no fear of whatever results from my being an as#@&%e (that post, by the way, was authored by my hand), but any local, as I suspect you are NOT, knows that rangers are not people to trust or confer with. Even Link, who I see no reason to slander or deface, he seems like a great person on the climbers' side, is still A TOOL! If you wear the badge and the uny, you're A F*#KING TOOL! I don't care if they read it, as I did nothing illegal, or, in my humble opinion, wrong.
So go ahead, Cunilingus Weenieroast, quote the f*#k out of my post and breakdown the slander, you seem to be exceptionally adept at it. As for boardlasted, who the f*#k are you and what right have you to say sh#t about this discussion, do you even know where Tuolomne is???,
you f*#king TOOL
Love,
Maxwell Silver Hasson
SS#859-24-4598
P.O. Box 122
Yosemite, CA
95389
DLN#7389378
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Wade Icey
climber
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Aug 23, 2003 - 11:10pm PT
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hey max- you seem like a brilliant specimen. could we also have your atm PIN# and your mom's maiden name? Some of us locals would like to make a deposit in your account.
Proud to be associated with locals Like you,
Wade
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