Mandela RIP

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
I don't know the "District 9" Dave Kos mentioned but if it deals with the
facts that SA has basically one party rule and a deteriorating economy for
most people then it is probably better that Nelson is not around to witness
his country's decline. I was rather surprised that he put on a brave face
and tacitly endorsed the travesty of hosting the World Cup with billions
spent on football stadiums, hotels, and security just like Brasil is doing now.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
it's a wonder he wasn't a far more radical, and angry, leader.

He actually was at one time--- and this was what landed him in jail.


I was thinking more in terms of contrasting him with the Aparetied leaders and enforcers, with the necktie and slaughter of innocents and so forth. THAT was radical, evil, and sowed the seeds of their own destruction.

Whatever NM might have professed early on - true leaders often demand justice at any cost - he did not, to my knowledge, openly encourage the murder of his former keepers once he came into power. I'm sure he could have sought a vast peer review of the entire government as opposed to a path of reconcilliation. But all of this is seen from a privilged white perspective (mine). One wonders how Mandala seemed to the vastly black majority, now and then. A white perspective, while feigning objectivity, perforce carries it's own prejudices, however unconscious.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
A white perspective, while feigning objectivity, perforce carries it's own prejudices, however unconscious.

Troll line.warning. Troll line

LOL

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 6, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Mandela perfect? A saint?

Hmmm I don't expect anyone to be perfect.. and I certainly don't expect anyone to be such an amazing leader as he turned out to be.

These come around once in a generation perhaps. If we are lucky.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2013 - 02:24am PT
I know a bunch of South Africans. Interestingly, they are all Jewish - talk
about being caught between a rock and a hard place. As such they have a great
love for their ex-home and their prespective is at once sympathetic and very
clear-eyed. They are rather like the Titanic's orchestra except they snuck
life-preservers into their instrument cases.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 7, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
his f*#ker had 210,000 hand grenades when arrested! F*#k, can you even count that high?

How many did he have 51 years later when he died this week?

Have you changed in the last 51 years?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 7, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
The attacks by conservatives (and some not-so-conservatives) on Mandela, and those of us who praise him, surprised me. Apparently, I wasn't alone among conservatives. Here's what Newt Gingrich had to say:

Yesterday I issued a heartfelt and personal statement about the passing of President Nelson Mandela. I said that his family and his country would be in my prayers and Callista’s prayers.

I was surprised by the hostility and vehemence of some of the people who reacted to me saying a kind word about a unique historic figure.

So let me say to those conservatives who don’t want to honor Nelson Mandela, what would you have done?

Mandela was faced with a vicious apartheid regime that eliminated all rights for blacks and gave them no hope for the future. This was a regime which used secret police, prisons and military force to crush all efforts at seeking freedom by blacks.

What would you have done faced with that crushing government?
What would you do here in America if you had that kind of oppression?

Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.
As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.

Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”
Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?
Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

Finally, if you had been imprisoned for 27 years, 18 of them in a cell eight foot by seven foot, how do you think you would have emerged? Would you have been angry? Would you have been bitter?
Nelson Mandela emerged from 27 years in prison as an astonishingly wise, patient, and compassionate person.

He called for reconciliation among the races. He invited his prison guard to sit in the front row at his inauguration as President. In effect he said to the entire country, “If I can forgive the man who imprisoned me, surely you can forgive your neighbors.”

Far from behaving like a communist, President Mandela reassured businesses that they could invest in South Africa and grow in South Africa. He had learned that jobs come from job creators.

I was very privileged to be able to meet with President Mandela and present the Congressional Medal of Freedom. As much as any person in our lifetime he had earned our respect and our recognition.
Before you criticize him, ask yourself, what would you have done in his circumstances?

http://www.gingrichproductions.com/2013/12/what-would-you-have-done-nelson-mandela-and-american-conservatives/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 7, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
I am no fan of Gingrich. But in this case I find myself in absolute agreement with him. If my government were to become as oppressive as Mandela's was at the time he was arrested I would at the very least consider being an incredibly vicious warrior against it.

To have been able to keep that nation from descending into chaos during Mandela's presidency is remarkable.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 7, 2013 - 03:27pm PT

Neil Young - Rockin' In The Free World - Nelson Mandela concert - Wembley stadium 1990
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Nelson Mandela in Britain: hero, villain and international treasure (John Harris in The Guardian) - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/06/nelson-mandela-in-britain

Peter Gabriel - Biko
[Click to View YouTube Video]
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Dec 7, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Rip Nelson Mandela for sure, but I'm having trouble find numbers on the number of people that sacrificed their lives to change that Government. Is that aspect being hushed up?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 7, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
District 9...Let them eat cat food...
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Dec 7, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Great movie!
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Dec 7, 2013 - 05:20pm PT

"What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust." - Mandela on W
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
That's the man Mandella was.

The operative word is
Was

He spent 27 years in prison for it and came out the other end a statesman.

Let's not forget either that if there hadn't been a Deklerk on the other side of the table he wouldn't have had anyone to talk to.

The two of them kept SA from being Rhodesia.

Their successors look like they are going to throw it all away.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 8, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Until sunset tomorrow..

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