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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 26, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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Indeed. The same brainiacs who assert that they should be able to use as much power as they want whenever they want are also those who complain the loudest when rates go up because there's too much demand and not enough supply.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with the fat guy!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
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You'll never hear me complain about electricity or gas prices because I know it's a good deal. I couldn't generate my own electricity or refine my own gasoline as cheaply as I can buy it.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 26, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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fattrad, I thought you were a capitalist. Get rid of stockholder owned public company.
Too much Koolaid today?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 26, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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we got lard..and ribs and chitlins and bacon and hams and pork chops and pickled pig's feet and pork rinds too
Mmmmm....cracklins....
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 26, 2006 - 04:53pm PT
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I know how to solve this heat. Apparently, a large amount of bovine are dying off because of the heat. Today is cooler, most likely as a result of fewer cows farting. Therefore, we should kill off all the cows to get the weather to cool down some more.
I doubt if you'll get much argument from us treehuggers. Cows suck.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 26, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Fat, your head is on upside down. They needed more regulation, not less. The power industry is too critical to be at the mercy of your greedy neocon speculators.
Before...utilities were allowed to charge ratepayers the cost plus a fair return on investment for construction of plants and equipment. The ratepayers paid in tiny pieces over a long period of time which made it less painful. Deregulation threatened to end these effective programs and leave utilities with huge stranded costs in plants with no way to recover. This is why they sold off their generation...to try to survive.
Deregulation was a scam and it's damaging effects are only beginning to be felt.
Too bad that no one would listen to those of us who were on the inside crying foul.
Cracklin' cornbread is heavenly.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 26, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
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"Only a profit incentive will generate efficiency"
Like your Enron boys.
Many utilities were delaying building plants because of the cheap power from the Columbia River and seasonal exchange agreements between utilities...which are down the drain. Also, the hassle of all the obstacles to plant siting. Many were waiting for the nuke technology to settle down into a coherent pattern and for clean coal plant technology.
To tie the power industry to the stock market is foolish. It should be given the same priority as the military in spending and decision making. It's at least that critical. Time to get scared.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 26, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
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Fat, in case you missed it, Herbert Hoover passed away awhile back.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2006 - 05:53pm PT
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When I was setting up seismic stations at Edison Substations and DWP Sites I was blown away at the age of the some of the equipment. Especially in places like South Central and Burbank.
Some of the Analog meters had dates from 1910.
It would not surprise me if the grid went down an stayed down a long time.
Edison and the DWP have located vital substations right next to the San Andreas Fault. When the 8.0 Earthquake happens good luck finding power for months.
The DWP engineers gave me concerns for the people that live in Bishop. Its that big Dam that holds back that big lake up Mammoth way.
Juan
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 26, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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Here's why total power deregulation will never happen:
There are some people to whom is it more profitable not to sell power to, even if they pay to lay the power line to them. Complete deregulation would require that there be no way to force a private company to install and support infrastructure to someone who it's not profitable to deal with.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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Only in California would MORE rules be called 'deregulation'.
The 'deregulation' only FORCED the power companies into short term spot market purchases - a totally back asswards and easy to manipulate situation.
Want to make a ton of money? Just shut off half your plants, and quadruple the prices on the other half! What are the power companies going to do? The state made a law that forbids them from making a long term contract.
Would you call forcing gas stations to sell you gas 1/2 gallon at a time 'deregulation'?
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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The california 'deregulation' scam seems like a remarkably good way of:
a) making the people that control the plants mucho $$$$ via market speculation
b) killing any chance of REAL deregulation (i.e. fewer rules, more real market freedom) by damaging the name with all this crap
Who wins? The people smart enough to play the system until it gets shut down, and then the giant megacorps that take over when 'deregulation' is phased out.
Who loses? Everyone with an electric bill in california.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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We luv sellin' you guys power from our federally-subsidized dams in the summer. When we have it, that is. Global warming is hurting this sweet deal -- less snow, less run-off, lower profits in the summer. So go ahead and crank up those AC units all ya want when it's in the triple-digits... and don't be suprised when everything shuts off.
While we're on the AC -- I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to wager more WASPs have central AC than those frickin' browned-skinned immigrants. And white folks like big houses that need the AC. Plenty of 5000 ft2 homes in LA and East Bay with only two people and central AC. Does this sound like the profile of the average illegal immigrant?
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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And c'mon -- why is it so hard to admit that regulated quasi-monopolies (such as PG&E) are a good thing? Is it really the best way to do things when services we regard as essential (electricity, water, health care) can be sold at an unregulated profit? In 2001, spot prices for electriciyt and natural gas in CA were truly spectacular. History shows those least able to pay for theese fluctuations (residential ratepayers) are almost always those hurt the most. In some cases (see recent heat waves in Chicago), it costs people their lives. Pretty drastic, don't ya think?
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:35pm PT
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The reason spot prices were so high in 2001 (in california)? Enron was manipulating the spot market by shutting down power plants during peak times to constrict supply and force price escalation.
Since the utilities were unable to enter into long term contracts (due to 'deregulation') (aka x MW/hr at y price), they had to buy electricity on these artifically constricted markets at the inflated prices on the spot.
If you can only buy gas 1/2 gallon at the time, you have no choice but to buy from the guy selling it at $20/gallon - you'll run out by the time you get to the next station.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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lazide, which power plant(s) specifically did Enron shut down?
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
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Specifically? And keep in mind, this is one they have ON TAPE.
They shut it down jan 17th, 2001.
How many more didn't have the benefit of running tape recorders?
From CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/03/enron.tapes/
(CNN) -- A Washington state utility released audiotapes Thursday that it said revealed bankrupt energy trader Enron Corp. plotted to take a power plant off-line in 2001 to jack up electric prices in Western states.
That same day, shortages of power forced rolling blackouts in northern California that affected about 2 million customers.
Snohomish Public Utility District in Everett, Washington, released the tapes as part of its effort to void a $122 million lawsuit Enron has filed against it seeking payment for electricity it was contracted to provide.
The utility says an Enron employee and a worker at a power plant in Las Vegas, Nevada, made up phony repairs, taking the plant off-line January 17, 2001.
Read the whole thing - it's pretty sickening. They have evidence that indicates market tampering all the way back to 1998, as well as tampering in Canada.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 26, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
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The "magic" of deregulation in energy markets is based on the unspoken assumption that there will always be an infintite supply of cheap energy available for purchase; once this does not hold, pricing can quickly turn ugly. It doesn't matter whether there COULD be supply at any given time; all that matters is what can be purchased. So if a plant is actually closed or not does not matter; all that matters is that the output from that plant is not available when it is needed and how this availabilty affects the spot price.
To the extent that a utility has long term agreements and keeps itself off the spot market, it is insulated from this problem. But many utiltities have drunk the deregulation KoolAid and therefore have eschewed long-term deals, going instead for a larger percentage of spot purchases. In volatile markets (see 2001), this is akin to taking a whole year's worth of mortgage payments and gambling them at the track. So.. how lucky do ya feel, punk?
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 11:52pm PT
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bobinc: and when you FORCE highly regulated utilities to buy on the spot market (no long term contracts), then couple that with intentional manipulation of the market, everyone loses their shirts.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 27, 2006 - 02:43am PT
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That's not how it worked, though. The utilities begged to be able to divest themselves of as much of the fixed costs of generation and transmission as they could (since they were True Believers in the CoD (Church of Deregulation)). As this gradually happened, and as the ownership of the generation went elsewhere, things seemed pretty good (both to ratepayers and shareholders).
Add in a hot summer in CA, a bad water year in the NW, multiple demands on natural gas outside of electricity generation (heating swimming pools in LA, etc), and voila, you have the summer of 2001.
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