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sketchy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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I put traps in my truck last night and had two this morning. YEE-HHAAWWWW
driftin right along
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Don't try to make excuses for the mice Lois.
They are inhuman.
It's like you trying to say "It's my fault if I leave food in plastic bags and the mice come chew it"
Of course the "Hate Humans First" crowd is always going to think like that.
They plan to take over by their greater birthrates. First you have one mouse, soon it's thousands. Fine if you are a Coyote but for me, kill kill kill
Peace
Karl
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sketchy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Karl
You can mock the people you don't agree with all day long, but if you would take the time to read the Koran, and hadiths you would relize this crap is not our fault, granted we havent made it better by going to Iraq, but even if american troops had never gone to suadi bin laden would have still attacked us. Making excuses for them only makes it easier for recruiting and carring more attacks. There are anumber of websites that are trying to spread islam that offer free korans. Assuming you are smart enough not to belive everything you read you should get one, and realize what we are up against. This problem far predates america.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kinda funny
One of the complaints of Iraqis is that their lives are valued less than animals in the West.
from
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0703-24.htm
.. the US paid $38,000 for Haditha victims' family members. That comes up to less than $1,600 per person killed. What a bargain.
The most any Iraqi has received to date for injury or property damage is $15,000.
Last year a Seattle woman was awarded $45,000 for the wrongful death of her cat.
For Iraqis to get a claim paid is harder than getting a rebate on your iPod. First you must have all your documents in order - birth certificates, witness accounts, proof of identity, etc. Most witnesses are afraid to come forward for fear of retribution. ... Then, you must get "proof of negligence of US soldier from a US soldier or unit."
That's a task that is virtually impossible, being that US soldiers are instructed not to assume blame. The claim must be filed within 30 days of the death along with a phone number for contact, making it out of the question since the overwhelming majority of Iraqis do not have phones.
..When payments are made, liability is never acknowledged and oftentimes family members are asked to sign waivers to exempt US personnel from any legal action.
Beyond the initial payments there is little recourse for the families of the victim. Until today no American soldier has been prosecuted for illegally killing an Iraqi. Commanders refuse even to count the number of civilians killed or injured by their soldiers.
Those who were allegedly involved in the Haditha massacre are awaiting a trial.
Waleed Mohammed, the attorney representing the victims, told The Washington Post that he has little hope for a fair outcome: "They are waiting for an outcome although they are convinced that the sentence will be like one for someone who killed a dog in the United States.... Iraqis have become like dogs in the eyes of Americans."
maybe he was being optimistic. We love our dogs!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sketchy
The same stuff is in the Bible. Doesn't make Christians necessarily genocidal. All three Religions of the Mid-East have a bloodthirsty history of war. When the Muslims had their empire, they allowed others to practice their own religions and were fairly moderate as conquerers.
Folks who point to the Koran and say "We've just got to fight these people" are getting hysterical.
Islamic countries haven't been invading western nations. More folks are dying from gangs or the common cold than from terrorists.
This is all an excuse to war over oil and power. If the US stopped meddling in coups, dictators and kings in the middle east, we've be on firm ground. That's all I want.
I condemn those who attack the US and I condemn unjust attacks on all sides.
But what the heck. Looks like the writing is on the wall. I'd prefer to die loving, understanding and working things out than killing em all and letting God sort em out. You can make your own choices
Peace
karl
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sketchy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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While the old testament does has several chapters where god ordered the death of specfic tribes at specific times, there is no open ended command for all christians to seek out and destroy others where ever they are found. I am not for killing all muslems or war. I am for getting out of Iraq as soon as possiable. We should let the place go to civil war and hope it spills over to the neboring countries. But this is not enough. The growing muslem popultion in europe is a huge threat. They are already asking for a different set of laws to apply for them, and unless something drastic happens within 50 years Europe will be islamic. Traditionally they do envade other coutnries when they have the strength. Mohhamed led 81 offensive military campains. There invasion of europe is much more dangerous because no one is paying attention. The next 20 years are gonna get ugly, we need to recongize this and plan for it. Pretending they will stop hating us if we just get out is asinine.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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I just saw on TV News where 77% of Palestinians support the kidnapping of the Israeli Soldier from last week.
Doesn't sound to me like there are too damn many moderates over there.
Makes a great case for Collective Punishment, as being practiced by Israel right now.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Locker
By the "support our troops" crowd, I was referring to the folks who claim advocacy of getting out of Iraq is somehow not supporting our troops.
Our troops don't get to decide when they leave. The politicians who sent them there have put their place in history books on the line and won't pull out until things are beyond hopeless. Even the Generals work for the politicians. It's up to the people to support our troops by knowing when they are dying in vain and should come home to their families.
I wish folks would get educated about the supposed enemy. Iraq is not Afghanistan is not Al Queda is not Islam. By worrying about a blanket "They" who mean to cause us "great harm" we are fearing a boogyman that we don't even understand. Understanding rationally is the first step in sorting out the lies and power plays from the real danger.
Don't like Muslims? Don't care about em? Pull out and let them fight each other. Then you can invade again if you want to steal their oil and build bases.
If you really study what's going on, you'll learn that what you are told has little to do with reality. Karen Hughes has rooms of folks that study just what lies you'll buy and that's what they put out there.
Meanwhile they continue to act out the neo-con dream of world hegemony and control over oil at the expense of our troops. I've had relatives myself in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd like em home.
Bush has his legacy on the line as well as the future of his family dynasty (jeb wants a job) If he admits failure (and failure is inevitable) he loses. He'll keep killing our boys until we stop him.
One lesson we should have learned from Vietnam. When folks are fighting for their home, and their enemies are fighting cause some president sent em over to fight, the homies always win, cause they never, never quit.
at least if we pull out, the US won't be the excuse for all the death
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Eventually we will pull out, (like we always do) next week, two decades from now, who knows. There is no possible mechanism of winning, for us, there, (except ecconomically which only benefits a subset of'Us'). And we will be blamed for lots of deaths, fair in a way, since WE started the whole thing. 9/11 is irrelevent, but convenient; it gave a rationalization that a very few americans, and No one else on the planet, bought, as an excuse for "the military and the monetary" to get together and "turn our children into mercenaries."
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Ah ha, I get it now....maybe you can link next time in a show of "intellectual genuninenessssssss" rather than having us "finish your sentence"....
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/unvote.asp
However, we also surveyed the U.N. voting records of several countries generally considered to be close allies of the U.S., and those results were none too impressive either. Only Israel consistently voted with the U.S.
% of Votes Against U.S.
Australia 44%
Canada 51%
Israel 11%
Japan 58%
United Kingdom 40%
France 46%
How much significance one should place in these figures is problematic, because most other U.N. Member States have records of voting against the U.S. that are equally as bad as the records of the countries named in the message above. U.N. votes on resolutions are frequently lopsided, pitting a single nation or a handful of nations against all the others, and more often than not the U.S. is the one nation at odds with the rest of the world. Of the 83 resolutions we surveyed for our informal tally, in ten cases the U.S. was the only Member State to vote against them, and in five cases only one other nation joined the U.S. in voting against them.
In fact, in over half the total cases (42 out of 83), the U.S. was supported by five or fewer Member States in voting against a U.N. resolution.
So it isn't just the Arab/Islamic states who consistently vote against the U.S. in the United Nations — pretty much the rest of the world does, too.
You forgot the rest MM, particularly after my "addit"...
Pass it along. Everyone needs to know this. Might even mention it to your congressman, who knows this anyway... what a disgrace... no wonder the world has no respect for us.
Not the first time you've been nailed on the "plager" though, eh? "You are very masterful with words." Still curious, R U 1 of da 84?
..."you're soaring like the Hindenburg..."-SC paraphrased.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=210181
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2006 - 12:10am PT
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Baba wrote "I just watched a great (because of its subject significance) movie called "Good Night and Good Luck" about Edward R Murrow. He had the courage to expose Senator Joe McCarthy's unamerican tactics in McCarthy's fight against communism."
Karl, that was a truly boring movie. It was filmed because far left wacko George Cooney was trying to blur the impact of Ann Coulter's book showing that Joseph McCarthy was completely right, and there were hundreds of Soviet spies in our government.
Read it, and realize the efforts liberals made to keep those communists in our government. Realize the efforts you're making to make sure the truth is never known.
Why did we give Eastern Europe to the USSR? Read which Soviet spy at FDR's side at Yalta made the deal. Liberals invented all the charges against McCartney because he was unmasking thirty years of spying. Their lies have been shoved down our throats for fifty years. That story alone makes any thinking American really distrust the New York Times.
By repeating these bogus lies about McCarthy you show you cannot accept the truth, because the fragile house of cards that is liberalism might collapse. It is a shoddy story, and you are it's child, still fighting a battle which has long been lost.
When the USSR collapsed. documents unearthed proved every allegation McCarthy made. Why not? He got his information straight from the FBI, since FDR wouldn't listen to Hoover.
Again, you're trying to rewrite history, but cannot.
I say all this to you only in an intellectual way.
Of course, I wish you peace and happiness on every level.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2006 - 01:21am PT
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We'll have to agree to disagree MM. McCarthy didn't manage to catch real spies. He managed to get Hollywood types. Spies should be caught and jailed. (even though we have spies all over the world and so the world naturally spies on US too, even Israel spies on us)
But folks shouldn't be blackballed, fired, and persecuted for their beliefs. You can be sure that if Jesus Christ lived during McCarthy's time, he have been harrassed, jailed, and punished. His economic policies within his group were pure communism if you'll remember. Only not violent, not godless, but otherwise commie!
And McCarthy used un-american and illegal methods on his witchhunt. For god sakes MM, it was the Army that finally brought him down, not some lefties.
Thank God for FDR. He may have made some mistakes with the Russians, but, like a good pinko, I think he was one of the greatest.
Peace
Karl
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 07:14am PT
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I find it ironic to read and to have read the blather from Jody, Fattrad, LEB and MM regarding the REAL reasons we invaded Iraq – democracy, to save the local population from atrocities, humanitarian reasons – and then to read right afterward that they have no problem or see no contradiction in all of the violence and killing that has occurred in the name of the U.S. and our supposed principles of that very hallowed democracy. You guys really must be having an identity crisis because what you say you stand for and what you advocate in the name of what you stand for are totally and utterly incompatible. It must be even harder for you, Jody, given the religious person you claim to be.
But this whole fiasco in Iraq and the entire fiasco of our so called foreign policy since 9/11 may have actually gone smoothly if Americans were able to admit who we really are or at least admit to what lengths we are willing to go in order to assuage our fears. If that were the case we could have had (and could still have) a true, open discussion.
But instead those in favor of the invasion – and on this board the four posters I mentioned above – try to hide behind a faux-morality to justify to themselves that what’s being done is somehow righteous, justified and coherent with the founding principles of this country.
It is what it is, and ironically those on the left are much more willing to see it and admit it than those on the right.
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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LEB,
Thanks for responding as well as clarifying your position.
You, however, make a lot of assumptions in your post about me. Not sure where I give the impression being an idealist. I’m just calling the proverbial “bullshit” on the four of you.
Now at least you’re honest in your motivations. Survival first, human rights, U.S. Constitution and founding principles second. I disagree on the survival approach you espouse, and also consider respecting the principles for which this country supposedly stands as part of a “survival” approach. – especially long term. But we’re getting somewhere in the discussion now that you’re more open about why you agree with US foreign policy and strategy since 9/11.
You wrote: “One problem with liberals is that they assume everyone BUT them is stupid. One should never assume *anyone* - even the most ignorant, backwoods bubba - is stupid. This is a mistake liberals make all the time. They confuse education with IQ when the one really has very little to do with the other.
That’s quite an assumption and typical right-wing pundit and Republican party propaganda used in order to marginalize the adversary. Bullsh#t, pure bullsh#t.
First, I have never written such, so as a response to my post you are flat out wrong. I disagree with much of the political philosophy the right espouses but I’ve never assumed or considered anyone to be stupid just because they swing right of center. Other than for the purpose of insult, I can’t think of any posts on Supertopo that have indicated that as well.
I would actually question how someone as intelligent as yourself could buy into such rubbish.
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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Lois,
As I am sure Jody would confirm, it’s “perp” with an “e”. Short for perpetrator.
What liberals are you talking about with regard to the general attitude towards law enforcement?
You’re confusing issues.
The problems I have with Gitmo is the government incarcerating anyone it wishes with no due process and no transparency. It has nothing to do with “profiling” or the fact that intelligence has indicated paying particular attention to a certain individual. In addition, U.S. citizens and legal residents were thrown in jail without counsel following 9/11 – totally and completely unacceptable, especially considering the whole democracy and freedom spiel put forth by the administration regarding its actions.
You, like Jody and MM seem to like to classify people in to the liberal or conservative camps – one or the other for you guys (and gal). Yep, I bet your brains would explode if you suddenly found yourselves in a discussion with someone who was both pro-choice and for the death penalty or someone who was anti-choice and anti-death penalty. What would you do? My gosh, no category to throw them into!!
Once again, who is calling who stupid? Why do you keep harping on this myth of myths? As a foundation for your arguments and political views do you need to believe that bands of liberals are roaming around calling every proclaimed conservative they meet “stupid”?
Ironic that you mention arrogance to be fatal – it’s arrogance that has created a mess of our foreign policy and of Iraq. Guess which political party is associated with that arrogance? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not the one typically considered liberal.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 12:37pm PT
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Karl:
I've ignored this thread until now, but I just want to say that your posts about the war, Muslims, and terrorists were well written and totally on the mark--some of the best writing I've seen on the topic. When people paint all Muslims as terrorists, become consumed by an irrational fear of brown people who worship differently, and believe that force is the best way to "moderate" people, then we are really in trouble. And right now, I'm afraid that we are really in trouble.
Some of you folks really need to get out and meet some real living, breathing Muslims. You might learn a few things.
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Touché!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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Lois
We think there are more innocent people in Gitmo than actual terrorists because those who made an informed and rational investigation into it have shown this to be true.
From the La Times:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm
Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses.
by Bob Drogin
WASHINGTON — Coalition military intelligence officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake," according to a confidential Red Cross report given to the Bush administration earlier this year.
Yet the report described a wide range of prisoner mistreatment — including many new details of abusive techniques — that it said U.S. officials had failed to halt, despite repeated complaints from the International Committee of the Red Cross.....
and Here
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0503-07.htm
News that the Pentagon will soon release about a third of the prisoners still detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has prompted the U.S. media and many in the blogosphere to recall Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's 2002 statement referring to Guantanamo prisoners as "the worst of the worst."
And as recently as June 2005, he said, "If you think of the people down there, these are people, all of whom were captured on a battlefield. They're terrorists, trainers, bomb makers, recruiters, financiers, [Osama bin Laden's] bodyguards, would-be suicide bombers, probably the 20th 9/11 hijacker."
But the Pentagon's announcement that it would soon release 141 prisoners – or about a third of those still detained at Guantanamo – comes despite continuing stubborn defenses of the facility and the way interrogators have determined the status of detainees.
This is not the first time prisoners have been released from the facility. Of the approximately 760 prisoners brought to Guantanamo since 2002, the military has previously released 180 and transferred 76 to the custody of other countries.
The Pentagon says the prisoners to be released no longer represent a threat to the U.S. and have no further intelligence value.
But critics of the George W. Bush administration's detention policies assert that the military does not have enough evidence on these people to try them, even before its own tribunals, which have a much lower threshold of evidence than U.S. courts.....
A snippet from the AP
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm
AP: Gitmo Detainees Say They Were Sold
They fed them well. The Pakistani tribesmen slaughtered a sheep in honor of their guests, Arabs and Chinese Muslims famished from fleeing U.S. bombing in the Afghan mountains. But their hosts had ulterior motives: to sell them to the Americans, said the men who are now prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.
A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Gary Schroen said he took a suitcase of $3 million in cash into Afghanistan himself to help supply and win over warlords to fight for U.S. Special Forces.
"It wouldn't surprise me if we paid rewards," said Schroen, who retired after 32 years in the CIA soon after the fall of Kabul in late 2001. He recently published the book "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan."
It's obvious. They knew Americans were looking for Arabs, so they captured Arabs and sold them — just like someone catches a fish and sells it.
Guantanamo prisoner
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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Then shame on you.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 10, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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The police's job is to enforce the laws by using necessary and apporpriate force to apprehend suspects, not to mete out punishment.
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