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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Hey Gary, I blame the North Korean missile crisis, the loss of any prowess I ever had as a climber, and the loss of my hair on the Sierra Club. Now I can blame the California energy crisis on the SC. I mean, Rush can't be wrong, can he?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Strange, isn't it, that our "liberal" media doesn't hammer on this.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis
Description of CA electricity crisis. Pete Wilson signed law supported by both parties. Oddly, the domestic producers had their retail prices regulated, even though it was well-known that CA produced only about 80% of its own electrical needs.
This directly caused the bankruptcy of PG&E when it exhausted all of its funds and credit, selling power for less than it bought the power.
Was the crisis precipitated by deregulation, drought in Pac NW, manipulation of prices - all of the above, some of the above?
Does it matter? The crisis is history. The production deficit continues today...
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Description of Wikipedia on its homepage:
the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Does it matter?
It matters to the poor children who lost their health coverage, and the blind and handicapped who lost their benefits due to this crisis promulgated by that pig Lay and others. It matters to the kids and parents who suddenly can't afford a college education and either have to drop out or take on prohibitive loans. It matters to folks who saw state park fees double.
Yes, the California Dems have to take their share of the blame, but this all was the brain child of Pete Wilson make no doubt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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So, once again, it's the fault of the victim?
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2006 - 12:21pm PT
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Enron couldn't have done what it did if Americans weren't such gluttonous energy consumers. How about a conservation plan instead of an increased production plan?
I'll tell ya something though: I do not feel all that sorry for CA electric consumers in terms of cost. Even if your rates doubled they would not equal what we pay out here in the Northeast.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jaybro, why you always gotta be hating on billionaires?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jaybro, not sure I understand what you mean by victim? Are you saying CA is a victim? To me that would be like you spending every dollar you earn your entire life, reaching retirement age with no income and calling yourself a victim. I guess if you look at it that way, one can be a victim of oneself?
Anyway, I prefer not to dwell on history and blame, but rather to focus on solving problems.
So can CA utilities now charge rate payers at least what it costs them to generate or purchase electricity? (Problem 3)
Is any significant baseload generation being added in CA? (Problem 1) (Baseload refers to generation that is available 24 hours at minimum cost. So it would include, generally, coal, nuclear, and hydro, but exclude wind, solar, natural gas, oil, and exercise bikes)
Wootles, conservation plans are direct result of high costs. The CA crisis might have solved itself, if utilities had been able to pass costs on to consumers.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
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I don't give a rats ass what 'causes' conservation as long as it happens. It goes beyond the cost of utilities. If you want to only look ahead to the future then start looking at more aggressive conservation programs.
Anyway all this does not change the fact that Lay was a slimy bastard and had his hand up the backsides of the Republicans.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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wootles, what do you mean by aggressive conservation programs?
Are those mandatory programs of conservation, like where you stick your god-like hand up my backside?
Please advise.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Yeah, Tradboy, remember not too long ago when the editors at wikipedia had to block IP addresses that were based in Congress because entries/profiles of several congressmen - on both sides of the divide - were being edited by their staff to make them look better than they were or is a couple cases to edit an opponent’s wikipedia entry to make them look worse.
I have always said that wikipedia is good for some information - such as Mozart cars or animals for example - but for more contemporary and contentious issues, the information must be taken with a grain of salt.
TradIsGood, I think when we ask (I certainly know when I ask) who is responsible for a certain issue, law etc, we are not necessarily trying to apportion blame. I think it does matter who initiate, introduce or start certain issues etc. It matters because if some bozo politician was behind something that was to the detriment of the public (us - you know, Gary, Jody, Locker, Nature, you, me et al) we can make sure we don’t vote for him anymore, and that he can be held accountable for any damage that has been done – human damage, financial damage, infrastructure damage.
And correct me if I am wrong (I am sure you will if you can), but the few times that you have said “What does it matter” always seems to be when, if blame and accountability were to be established, it would be to the detriment of somebody you support or who has the same ideology and beliefs.
I would bet that you tried to apportion blame to people like Bill Clinton a number of times.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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Not believing in God kind of eliminates the 'God-like' hand possibility. Perhaps if I were king....
By 'aggressive' I mean larger (if any exist in CA) incentives for consumers to conserve by cutting consumption, upgrading household appliances, installing solar heating or PV panels. There are loads of alternatives to large scale electric generating projects. The problem is the cost benefit is generally on the losing side so people don't bother unless they just want the warm fuzzies from knowing they are 'green'.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Patrick - ha! You got me on that one!
I think I did once blame Clinton for nukes in Korea. You are right. And the Senate (and congress?) had to pass the treaty (bill?) allowing it. So many somebodies were dumb enough to think that "giving" the jokers nukes would be a nice trade for them agreeing not to test missiles.
Now that is another interesting problem to solve. We can't erase that one either.
But it is not enough to vote idiots out if you simply replace idiot 1 with idiot 2. Getting rid of Clinton (and members of Congress) did not get rid of the nuclear reactors and nuke weapons development in NK.
Solving problems requires constructing solutions.
So what are CA voters doing to solve their electricity problem? Who will actually run on a platform with a solution, rather than a problem? Cynically, I am afraid they will have choices between multiples of idiot 1 and idiot 2, all of whom will have no solution or even an understanding of the problem.
And even if some of the candidates had solutions, it seems that history has shown that to get elected, it is easier and more reliable to smear/blame the opponent, than to educate the public sufficiently to understand the problem and your solution.
My own minor out-of-state $0.02. :)
Blame on!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Thanks wootles - that is what I thought you meant.
Incentives - i.e. taking money from one pocket and putting it into another. Sure, NJ does that with solar (so do CA and many other states, and the USA, though most not enough to make it a good economic choice).
I am planning to take an incentive to put up solar panels to reduce my energy cost. But if I had to foot the whole bill, it would not pay and I would spend or invest the money elsewhere.
The good solutions just happen because of "economic forces". The bad solutions make some folks pretend to be warm and fuzzy at the expense of the ones who are paying for it (or at their own, if they do not figure out the true costs - but it is ok for them voluntarily to make that choice (donation) ).
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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In that it takes many dollars to get elected and the only ones with sufficient dollars got those dollars from big business, there is almost no likelyhood of a solution that entails selling less to the idiots that make up the population of this country. In that big business can't see past next quarters earnings report, how in the hell can they have any chance of seeing that it is in their long term interests to take a hit now for future stability? Just not gonna happen. When we start to run out of stuff then we will have a revolution. Until then everyone just wants their heads in the sand and to be kept safe. They are all idiots. They deserve what they get. Unfortunately I am along for the ride. It would all be different if I was KING.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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TradIsGood, the European Union's Commission just came out with a report on solar power and how effective it can be and how much more effective a certain kind of panel is over the older ones. It said that over the coming years it could help reduce reliance on fossil fuels big time. It had a whole bunch of figures, such as if there were like 880 sq k (or was it miles? - something) of solar panels installed on the Sahara, it could take care of the globe’s requirements for ??? I can’t remember what it said as I read it last week.
I read this in a news item online but darn it, I can't find it to put up the link so you could read it and comment on it since you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about that stuff and physics etc.
I have gone on the EU Commission's website, but can't see anything about it (there's lots of 'bureaucratic stuff' to try and sift through it all and I need to get to the shop before it closes).
I have the article (printed) at home (I think) so I'll get the URL from the print out and tomorrow post it.
The EU report seems to make sense but my science strengths lie in biology and such, not physical science.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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In B.C. the cheapest power is that which is conserved. There are many areas where a modest investment will lead to significant savings of power, for use in more productive ways.
Some examples include building construction and insulation, street lights, generation and transmission systems, and home appliances. Plus education.
Most electricity in B.C. is hydro generated - one plus to all the rain. I believe electricity here is relatively inexpensive - not always a good thing. B.C. Hydro, a public utility owned by the province, generates and distributes most power, and has done so since about 1960. About 15 years ago it stated quite clearly to the public that the choices were either to conserve, or build another huge dam, Site C on the Peace River. Since then there have been all sorts of programs to save power, but we're now exceeding capacity.
To address this, our current (right-wing) government is quite keen on mini-hydro power projects. It's causing a fair amount of fuss, and not really being done according to any broad plan. It keeps the government's business friends happy, anyway, given that there is no public support for privatizing B.C. Hydro.
The surest way to conserve power, or any natural resource, is to increase it's absolute price. Gas is now over US$3/US gallon, but has been more expensive on several occasions in the past, notably the late 1970s - early 1980s. Much of the economic expansion of the mid 1980s - early 2000s was founded on cheap oil. When/if the price truly rises, it may hurt.
Anders
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"The tree-huggers have taken over this state"
-um remember who exactly Is, in charge now?
California, the state that brought you Esalen And the John Birch Society.
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CA had capacity to generate 100% of its needs, or 
Let us know!