Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Gary may be becoming a master of the left handed compliment.
He does, however, point out the greatest dichotomy in this discussion; one of time horizon.
Although the narrower scope of this topic was rivets my point is that one must look at the big picture. If the nature of the rest of a pitch changes substantially with the passage of time (or more accurately climbers) then considering what hardware should be in any drilled holes is affected.
My feeling is that a drilled hole is a drilled hole. It shouldn't have risk engineered into it precisely BECAUSE things change with time.
This forum serves as a useful platform for debate and I welcome the opportunity to refine my concepts with other climbers acting as both sounding boards and critics.
It would be a boring world indeed if everyone agreed.
But to be effective in revealing the true nature of issues in debate the dialogue need have both logic and clarity.
This is the second time I find myself the object of prettyboy's wrath. Both cases have been occasioned by his unrevealed retro-writing of posts, ad hominen attacks at the point when his argument itself needs bolstering, and harping on minor aged gripes. Add to this poor composition skills and the exercise becomes that much more futile for what time I spend at it.
I am forced to wonder if he displays similarly poor sportsmanship while roped.
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
|
Yo Ron,
Hey man thanks for all your hard work on them trade routes. It sure gave me a cool place to be on the weekends and not to mention dreams and visions to accomplish or fail on. Yep the trade routes of Zion will alwayse be a legacy hopefully one that we can indulge in for a long time.
Clust
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Cheers
It was/is/will be fun.
|
|
PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
|
|
Ron:"I am forced to wonder if he displays similarly poor sportsmanship while roped."
Well Ron, had I acted on my dismay for the past 23 or so years, all the drilled holes that I have come upon, that had clean pins pounded into them, on the many of your utterly hundreds of clean routes, would have been cleaned out and filled in. But, since I do have some ability to respect others and their premise to exist on this planet and in this country, I didn't.
Your logic has existed in the Alps and the Dolomites of Europe for many years since Whymper first scaled the Matterhorn. There are hundreds of vertical ladders strewn all over those crags, that allow millions to ascend the heights, anually. There are hundreds of "Huts" at those heights. Of course, you already knew that since you have extensive experience climbing in those areas, right? What am I pounding out now? Your "visionary" philosophy parallels the philosophy of the Euro Commercialization of all the Crags in those regions. To add, the 6K meter frenzy of the past 15 years or so in the Karakoram, Hindu Kush and Himalayas. Anyone that has the equipment and money, can scale to the heights and be called a "Mountaineer". All for the price of a buck or two. The Crags are littered with debris and human waste. There is absolutely no respect for the environment, fauna nor the well being of the animals that inhabit those wonderful hills. But, the rock has been preserved! Oh boy! You call it looking towards the future. I call it "Disneyland" at the cost of the environment and the dignity of nature that existed in those hills far longer than the greed and ego of humans with a "Vision" for the future.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Once again you leap to the erroneous conclusion that I want to make things easy when I only want to make them last.
(Your refusal to even attempt to appreciate my position now warrants you one sentence responses. Soon it'll be the DeFuca Zzzzzzzzzz.)
|
|
PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
|
|
I will end this dumbass futile discussion with your very arrogant, egotistical and selfish grammatically perfect ass with this...
If you wanted them to last from the git go, then why didn't you use the proper type bolts on your FA's?????? Had you done some research prior to drilling and pounding pins, you would of found that 1/2" or 3/8" x 3" SS five piece RAWL/RAMSET/POWERS were available and have been around since 1977!!! And don't even try to argue the date with me for my "Pop" was a Distributor and Quality Assurance Rep for the three different manufactures of this particular concrete sleeve anchor bolt! None of these routes are considered "Wilderness" routes. Why didn't you at least return to your "Relic" Trade Routes, from time to time, and update the stances and bolt ladders with the evolving standards of the modern day???? Thanks to some motivated folks that took the initiative to do so, many of your routes are now somewhat "Safe". I, being one of those dumbass's. I never told ASCA either of my personal efforts. That, Ron, is my bitch with you! Never heard you give any "Public" thanks to any of the guys nor to anyone else that may have taken the initiative to fix your routes, so that they will last!!! Drilled holes with pounded pins are not the quality current day standard to make a route last. Especially in SANDSTONE!
Per the ASCA webite and my personal update:
Prodigal Son: Replaced all anchors and most protection bolts (19 total). 09/99 Jason Stevens and Jared Nielson and I on my 5/00 (6th) ascent.
Spaceshot: Replaced all anchors and most protection bolts (23 total). 2001 and I on my 05/03 (5th) ascent.
AND MANY MORE.......END OF STORY!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
So where have my drilled angles been failing that replacements are even needed?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Try again.
So where have my drilled angles been failing that they need replacing?
|
|
PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
|
|
UHHHH....P1 of Touchstone, the last P's of the Shot and PS to name a quick three, where those that knew not better, cleaned them out thinking that they are "Antique" Booty????? In doing so, leaving gapping holes due to their inadequate sandstone "Cleaning" experience/ability and following climbers, again not having the ample experience/ability on the proper technique of "Bat or Beak" holing in sandstone, destroyed the oringinal drilled placement, rendering them completely useless! You want photo's? I have a collection, equivelent to the one posted above, of the evidence.
Again Ron, my point, if you're gonna do it, do it right. If not at first, go back and fix it to make it safe and adequate to bring it up to current standards so it will last. Especially in Sanstone! Especially if it is a "Trade" Route used by hundreds.
Especially if you live right down the road and can access the work/routes on a regular basis. And if others have done so, at least give those hearty and caring individuals a thanks for doing so.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
So all drilled angles are inherently "unsafe" because some cheesedicks abuse them?
I guess that means all cars are unsafe too.
Do you often ctiticize someone for bolting, then add bolts to that person's route, and then demand that he thank you for it? What a prince of a guy you are! A regular saint to the climbing community!
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
PDHman, thanks for work done to replace old stuff.
Ron does live close to Zion, and he does care about his routes, so from a personal level I suppose one might reach the conclusion that he might choose to backup anchors.
However, I really disagree with thinking that it is the FA's responsibility to maintain routes. In fact, I think thats BS. In the early 80's there were a number of routes in indian creek with one bolt anchors. Whenever I rapped off those or backed them up I didnt curse the FA team, taking care of ones self was part of climbing and it still should be.
As far as others removing the fixed angles, why is that Ron's problem? I dont mind calling Ron on his sh&& but lets make sure it is really his...
Curious, does this mean that updating rivets should be done by the FA? All this time we thought climbing was about freedom yet it would appear that we need something like a manual for First Ascent Teams and route maintenance.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Gary,
I actually used to try to maintain my routes, but after seeing what others do, and realizing that I wouldn't have any time left to put up new ones, I had to let things go.
I have to wonder if Prettyboy maintains all of his many routes too, or whether when he puts them up they are so perfect that other climbers are simply unable to abuse them.
|
|
yo
climber
I'm so over it
|
|
Well, now I am confused at the end of this splendid pissing match. PDH wants (although he is able to resist his wants) to remove DAs on Ron's routes but also describes the damage done by gumbies when said DAs are removed? PDH rants at Ron's over-bolting and dumbing down of routes and then is prominently involved in rebolting said routes? PDH says that the degradation of DAs over 30 years (!) proves they are useless? Ron says that all cars are unsafe? Don't be silly, Ron--all guns are unsafe.
|
|
Kartch
climber
Mutahna
|
|
Yo, just watching Ben and Nate you know all guns are safe. Actions speak louder my friend. After all there has never been a misfire at your workplace. Or has there? Ask Greg.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Still waiting to hear which DAs actually failed.
All cars are unsafe when driven by gumbies.
(Strangely, the same is true of DAs.)
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
|
I have this old sks with a ovaling gas chamber I turn my head every time i shoot it.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I am gratified to hear that this thread was opened by a marksman. hehe
|
|
PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
|
|
"However, I really disagree with thinking that it is the FA's responsibility to maintain routes. In fact, I think thats BS. In the early 80's there were a number of routes in indian creek with one bolt anchors. Whenever I rapped off those or backed them up I didnt curse the FA team, taking care of ones self was part of climbing and it still should be."
By this comment, you condon the addition of anchors or bolts to any route that YOU feel may be unsafe?
"Well, now I am confused at the end of this splendid pissing match. PDH wants (although he is able to resist his wants) to remove DAs on Ron's routes but also describes the damage done by gumbies when said DAs are removed? PDH rants at Ron's over-bolting and dumbing down of routes and then is prominently involved in rebolting said routes? PDH says that the degradation of DAs over 30 years (!) proves they are useless?"
Never said Ron "Over Bolted"! His 1/4" buttonhead/Leepers were, still are and will always be totally inadequate for any Sandstone route. When FA'd, that should have been researched prior to the FA's if his philosophy stands true then as it does today. If he in fact got on the "Think of the Future" bandwagon after the FA's, he sould have taken that on with his "TRADE ROUTES" and updated them so as to make them examples/testimonies of his ideaology. DA's on the last pitches of PS and SS and other routes that weren't his (Zenayata Entrada and Deep Voodoo are two quick examples that comes to mind...and I replaced them accordingly with 1/2" & 3/8" x 3" SS Five Part Sleeve RAWL/MET HGRS in 00') were compromised from weather, over usage and ignorance. Another reason why he should have made a point to "UPGRADE" the high usage routes. They have been replaced with 3/8" x 3" SS Five Piece Sleeve RAWLS/MET HGRS back in 00' and 01' by others that took it upon themselves to make the routes current. Believe me, they will last for up to 50+ years.
And, your ignorant/selfish comments about weapons and marksmanship...it is only obvious that none of you has ever pointed a weapon at a fellow human being, regardless of who and what they are, pulled the trigger, put that round in their forehead, watched that individual breathe their last breath and die. At that very moment, your entire perspective of life changes like nothing you could ever imagine. You begin the life long agony of having to live with the fact that it was your action that terminated a fellow human's existence on this planet. Had any of you ever had to experience such a traumatic and most intense event, you most assuridly would not be taking that act in vain and verbalizing it in such a rude and nonchalant manner as you do continously on this site! It is no f*%king joking matter what so ever! It is the worst thing that I and oh so many of my "Brother's in Arms" have ever ever ever ever had to do, and it torments me daily! His eyes haunt me continously.
That is why I climb so passionately these last seven or so years. To help me deal with the things I did and participated in for 24 years! All in the name of "Freedom" so that the many that are out there, that are so f*&king clueless to events such as terminating a human's life, can jack their dumbass jaws, buy a bunch of guns, shoot at beer bottles in the desert, and think that they are somebody because of the amount and type of guns they own. Amazingly, they can do that, freely.
Now back to the issue of the rivets/fixed anchors and the responsibilty of tending to them....
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
You certainly don't need therapy, but have you considered assertiveness training?
|
|
PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
|
|
Been to many hundreds of sessions, Ron, since retiring from being an intricate component of the US International Killing Machine for 24 years. At the first one they insisted the following on us...
"Do you walk the talk, or just talk the talk to be somebody that you aren't? Remember who and what you really are!" Welcome home!"
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!