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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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I don't understand why anything needs be done to modify the route. As it is, the aid can be ascended and the Muir Trail can be ascended.
Any change at all will ruin a "last great problem" for future generations. What about 20 years from now when climbers, who are WAY better than any of us ever was, come along? Modifications will cheat them of their chance to make a bold statement. Who knows what will be possible 20, 30, 50 years from now?
Why, here in 2012, is it so important to "fix" it?
Ricky, why is this so important to you? I don't get it at all.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Just as cams and sticky rubber came about, this route might get done with zero gravity belts and suction cup gloves.
I wasn't alive when any of these things happen, but I would like to think that there are impossible climbs, that there are things that are unsolved, to be solved. If anyone knows the limits of holdless climbing its Henny and Rick A, but how many times did people do Jaws at Woodson before Dan Beal finished the impossi-hard problem 4 feet away from it?
I like to think the inexperience and short perspective of my youth might be a good thing here. One could always rap into Muir Trail, it's done often in the valley isn't it? Isn't it just a quirk that we start climbs on the bottom? If we are being totally objective than great climbing is great climbing, whether or not the approach to it is a junky 5.7 chimney, a 4th class ledge, bullshit death Aid or a rappel? What are you looking to get out of it? I think a lot of the argument to add bolts is because people want to tick the whole route. I really get that concept, I mean heck I used to collect baseball cards and the East Butt of middle gets more laps than other similarly high quality routes because of the cache of the 'tick.' I just see that idea creeping up sometimes and ask myself how tangible that satisfaction can be (for me, sometimes strong!).
Will it get climbed if you add a bolt? Maybe. But people aren't up there aid climbing, at least not that often. If the impetus to add a bolt is because the free climbing is wonderful and the aid is just a necessary evil, shouldn't you just rap to it? Just curious, I'm a dumb kid :)
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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The problem with New Wave traversing in from the right is that it is even more of a museum climb than Flying Circus, having never been repeated since its first ascent in 1983, and it is even less likely that anyone will use it to access the easier Flying Circus free climbing. The link up of New Wave to FC has yet to be done; in my opinion, one of the last, great problems at Tahquitz.
Hi Rick:
That section of the rock I always found intriguing. Originally, there was a fixed nut on New Wave between the first and second bolt, although as I recall it looked pretty manky, and if you blew off the 5.12 crux you'd hit the deck and probably bust your ankles....not the type of climb that people line up for on the weekends!
I went there with Dave Mayville in 1999 and we set up a toprope just to see what was up with the New Wave. We discovered a great direct start (which we named Mavericks) that climbs through the big overhang to New Wave's second bolt. This route is listed in the 2001 guidebook.
I went back in 2001 with Frank Bentwood and I led it (with 2 new bolts on the overhang). This is a suberb, albeit short, high quality pitch with some stout pulls over the overhang, then some delicated smearing/slab climbing on the traverse. It's actually scarier for the follower than the leader, since you actually climb down a bit at the third bolt.
A couple years later I went back and added a second pitch, which is a nice link-up into Flying Circus. Instead of traversing left to the 5.11d mantle on Flying Circus, it goes more or less straight up from the belay past 2 bolts, then makes a very delicate, tip-toe traverse left to the last bolt on pitch 1 of Flying Circus. From here it's about 5.9 up to the belay. This pitch is probably 5.11a/b, and very high quality- plus, if you're up for it, you can take it right into pitch 2 of Flying Circus!
Bob Gaines
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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Bob-Thanks much for that explanation; it really moves the discussion forward. John and I knew of Mavericks from the guide but the rest of the bolts to the right of Flying Circus that we could see from rappel were a mystery. You're right, it's really great rock there, including your routes and the classic Unchaste up higher.
It looks like the Mavericks route is the most logical way to approach Flying Circus and avoid the hooking section.
On New Wave, you say that Gib's number 3 stopper placement after the first bolt was fixed when you saw it. Gib thought that this protected that section pretty well. Do you think the placement is still there or did that flake fall off? Regardless, it looks like the only part of New Wave not repeated is that section from the first to the second bolt.
Dave-You asked what's so important about considering whether to add a bolt now. The answer is it's that not important at all. The thread was prompted by John's interest in freeing the route and our fortuitous opportunity to climb together a couple of weeks ago.
I was pretty enthused about the great sequence of moves when I got to top rope them after all these years and I thought it unfortunate that more people don't get to experience that. The best part of this discussion so far is that it prompted Gaines to describe his routes which are not in the guidebook and do allow reasonable free climbing access to FC, and all protected reasonably now by modern bolts.
Bob-What is the variation that goes left from the Flying Circus hanging belay? There are two bolts heading left up a little crack in the direction of the top of the Green Arch. I presume this is one of your routes?
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Bob-What is the variation that goes left from the Flying Circus hanging belay? There are two bolts heading left up a little crack in the direction of the top of the Green Arch. I presume this is one of your routes?
Yep, another variation done long ago (5.12-)
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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On New Wave, you say that Gib's number 3 stopper placement after the first bolt was fixed when you saw it. Gib thought that this protected that section pretty well. Do you think the placement is still there or did that flake fall off? Regardless, it looks like the only part of New Wave not repeated is that section from the first to the second bolt.
Start of New Wave
Old 1/4 inch bolt is on the right, corroded SMC death hanger and all.
Arrow points to the "flake" where the nut was. Looks like it might have broken off? Not sure.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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A treat to read this detailed discussion, written with care, about actual climbing. Sure the bottom section won't go at 14d from the ground? That's all I would add--some context about modern grades, yes in this style of climbing.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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From John,
"I don't agree with your comparison to a free climb. Aid routes, with the exception of clean aid, almost always result in some damage to the rock, by pounding in pins, copperheads or even hooks that break off edges. Also, many established aid routes have bat hook holes and other forms of enhanced hook placements. I would like to see as little damage and alteration to the rock as possible which would not involve drilling a bolt and creating a A0 move."
Free climbs with bolts also damage the rock and adding bolts to free climbs with bolts increases the damage.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Pretty incredible, Rick!
Thanks for sharing!!!!
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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From my perspective as a member of the FA team, I think that Bob has settled the question in my mind. Flying Circus should have no additional bolts added to the aid section, and future generations can have the rock preserved for later shenanigans. We did the aid, as we did the free climbing, from the ground up. (And, no, that is not an arbitrary choice. Our sport was predicated on the notion of climbing, not rapping down.)
I don't condone adding any bolts to FC, nor do I believe we need to beef-up the belay. Replacing the 1/4" with modern hardware should handle it, and if you're worried about a fall directly onto the belay, you could drop down a bolt or two and belay from there—as Ricky suggested.
Every old bolt has been replaced. Thanks to John for removing the added bolt on the second pitch, thus preserving the Muir Trail. So the museum route remains as it ought! The route stands. And it is still waiting for the "tigers" to match the works of these "toothless old tykes of tomorrow."
You can rap onto it, if you choose. Top-rope it if you must. (Though you'll forever deprive yourself of the real route. And we'll agree that you cheated.) Or follow Bob Gaines' routes to avoid the aid.
So, Bob, did you (or anyone else in your parties) lead the best parts of Flying Circus? Or does all that gorgeous rock still have only two ascents done on-sight and without prior inspection? The Game is best played by keeping the rules rigorous.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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On the fun and easy section of Flying Circus leading up to the aid during the 1978 FA...
Notice the period-correct 9mm double-rope technique—a Stonemaster British affectation which a bunch of us acquired after our first few European seasons.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dave, I thought your remark that "The Future is Now" said a lot on many levels...and I fully agree!
I could write a book here, but I'll shut up for once and defer to the masters.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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. So, Bob, did you (or anyone else in your parties) lead the best parts of Flying Circus? Or does all that gorgeous rock still have only two ascents done on-sight and without prior inspection? The Game is best played by keeping the rules rigorous.
Hi Rob, I never had the balls to lead the Muir Trail, but I've toproped it, and I've toproped the free climbing part at the top of Flying Circus' first pitch. As to whether or not the original route has had a third ascent, I can't really say, but there are a lot of great climbers out there, and not all of them report their climbs to supertopo or internet forums.
Thanks to John for removing the added bolt on the second pitch, thus preserving the Muir Trail. So the museum route remains as it ought!
I wasn't aware of any bolt ever being added to that pitch? Hope he didn't inadvertently chop the bolt on The Powell variation to The Unchaste which was up and right from the Muir Trail bolt, and placed by Mark Powell in 1964 and replaced by yours truly sometime in the 90's. The 2001 guidebook shows the Muir Trail going to that bolt (which would make it 2 bolts total on that pitch) but maybe you just went straight up and avoided it? I know it might be tough to remember, 30+ years ago!
What you did back then, in EBs no less, was state of the art, and inspirational to me as a young climber. I remember reading the write-up and seeing that photo of you on the Muir Trail in Mountain magazine. Those were the days!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Found some more photos:
Charles leading the rising, traversing hook section from the first bolt to the second bolt. This was an outstanding effort to hook across that smooth part and get the second bolt in.
Rob jugging up to follow the free part of the first pitch and lead the second. He is approaching the second bolt that Charles placed.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Yay Robs! I enjoyed your comment and the quote "toothless old tykes of tomorrow." Was that Tom Patey?
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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The following helps to illustrate what we have been talking about.
The "R" is the approximate location of the fixed Rurp.
The circle is the area of the critical hook move and where I was originally thinking about adding a bolt. If Rob's against it, however, that is the end of discussion for me.
The arrow is the red horn that can be securely hooked.
The "x" is the first bolt (last of the old bolts and now replaced).
The dotted line is the traverse from the right on New Wave.
The upper arrow is the approximate line of the Muir Trail.
Bob-The bolt that was removed was just a third bolt at the belay for the the Muir Trail pitch. There are now two modern bolts, in the same holes as the original 1/4 inch bolts.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Rick- Check your email for CC3's contact info.
His voice should help steer this discussion.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Yes, of course, Dave. ...the poet laureate of British climbing...
Live it up, fill your cup, drown your sorrow
And sow your wild oats while ye may
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow
Were the Tigers of Yesterday.
--The Last of the Grand Old Masters, Tom Patey
I, too, would like to hear from Charles. While we have a quorum, CCIII needs to chime in here!
Kudos to you, Mr. Gaines. Your prolific FAs in both JT and around Idyllwild have been an inspiration to me and my buds for a very long time. The beta for the bolts to the right side of FC is excellent!
Thanks for posting all those pictures, Rick. Got any more?
Here's the photo that was used in that Mountain Magazine blurb:
A short time later:
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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That's a perfect example of Type II fun. Very enjoyable, in retrospect.
I was able to pull in some rope with the trusty hip belay and shorten the fall a bit. Probably not possible with today's belay devices. I remember that when you stopped you were less far below me than I anticipated.
Funny how your white bell bottoms caught air on the way down which pulled them skywards so they look like knickers! Probably slowed you down a bit, like tiny drogue parachutes.
I remember that the foothold you used to drill the bolt could be made out, vaguely, from the belay if you leaned way out. It was clear that the only way up was to get to that hold somehow. After you fell, I offered to try it, but you refused to relinquish the lead, composed yourself at the belay for a few minutes and then went right back up. When you got the bolt in, it was a relief to know that the project, which took a lot of effort and time, would be completed that day.
I found the last, step-across move not that technically hard this time, but what I had forgotten was how sustained it was to get there. You are not pumped in the normal sense, but your feet and fingers are very tired at that point from the consistent, hard edging
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jun 10, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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Nowadays, I usually roll up those comfortable Stonemaster® pants to the knee. I may have to rethink that now... <g>
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