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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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So if this is indeed the case, how does x or y anythings come into play?
If you are asking me about my beliefs based on genetics. I believe that our choices play a part in how our genetics are displayed in successive lifetimes.
This article sort of explains it.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html
Which means that the more we ingrain a belief, the harder it is to change.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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I sense a guiding consciousness within nature and innately feel that activities which damage the capacity of life to repair the planet is shortsighted, if not outright "wrong". Basically, I'm an ecologist.
IMO...
This institutional religion crap is bunk. Anyone saying some stupid book speaks for God is bunk. Anyone saying they and their people are the only people that can interpret any such stupid book correctly is even deeper bunk.
Anyone claiming they're doing what God wants is bunk and likely to be psychotic. Especially a politician. Delusions of grandeur.
This isn't to say I don't find inspiration in "holy" books. Sure, their are inspiring stories there, but I don't think theses justify the creation of religions. I find just as much inspiration from many works of pure fiction.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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That will suck for everyone except for the moral majority.
I know that this is extreme, but I am certain that there are plenty of psycho and socio paths who wish that some things were legal that our society agrees are abhorrent.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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It's abhorrent to tell people you are speaking from God's words and they better do what you and your religion tell them to do. It's not only abhorrent, it's ridiculous. Find a real argument. Grow up.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 11, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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It's also banal. I would reject Klimmer's God on the grounds of banality alone.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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There's plenty of the same sort of people who argued against, and even passed state constitutional bans on interracial marriage until ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1967.
Many believed God was against that too
Deuteronomy 7:2-3: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Just sayin
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Thanks Binks.
I am still wrestling with the understanding of how to incorporate what I believe God's laws are into a society that includes people who don't believe in God and with people who have different beliefs about what God's laws are. I have studied enough and experienced enough to know that though I believe in God, there are plenty of people who also believe in some form of higher power, yet I would not want to be forced to incorporate some of their beliefs into my life through laws. I also know that vengeance is God's, so I don't have to be burdened by that. Yet I also know that a society is known by its laws and we create collective karma that can haunt us. One collective type of karma are wars. People will disagree with me, but abortion is another. I am not certain that I would outlaw abortion, just as I wouldn't Edit:I meant to say outlaw instead of ( allow) the owning of guns. Something deeper is required to reduce the number of abortions in this country, plus reduce the amount of violence. I don't believe that those things can be legislated.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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John Vawter, I took the liberty of posting the image from you link, thank you!
kind off hard to read the words, but if you squint it can be done
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 11, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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Klimmer said on a previous post:
“So if someone is forcing you to listen and threatening you to convert to Christianity or lose your life, then they don't know the Good News and are not agents for GOD. GOD will hold them accountable.”
WikipediA: editing to make it shorter you can go online yourself.
The Moral Majority was a political organization of the United States which had an agenda of evangelical Christian-oriented political lobbying. It was founded in 1979 and dissolved in the late 1980s
The origins of the Moral Majority can be traced to 1976, when Jerry Farwell embarked on a series of “I Love America” rallies across the country to raise awareness of social issues important to Farwell.[1] These rallies were an extension of Farwell’s decision to go against the traditional Baptist principle of separating religion and politics, a change of heart Farwell says he had when he perceived the decay of the nation’s morality.[2] Through hosting these rallies, Farwell was able to gauge national support for a formal organization and also raise his profile as a leader. Having already been a part of a well-established network of ministers and ministries, within a few years Farwell was favorably positioned to launch the Moral Majority.
The Moral Majority was an organization made up of conservative Christian political action committees which campaigned on issues its personnel believed were important to maintaining its Christian conception of moral law, a conception they believed represented the opinions of the majority of Americans (hence the movement's name).
1988 was the last presidential election for which the Moral Majority was an active organization. With Reagan having reached his two-term limit, the Republican nomination was open to a variety of primary contenders. The evangelical minister and televangelist Rev. Pat Robertson sought the Republican nomination and would have been, at first glance, a natural choice for the Moral Majority’s support. Although Robertson’s political platforms were extremely similar to the ones the Moral Majority supported, Farwell gave his organization’s endorsement to contender George H. W. Bush instead. Farwell’s decision highlighted the rivalry between Farwell and Robertson as televangelists but also revealed the deep-seated tension that still persisted between competing evangelical traditions – Farwell’s fundamentalist tradition was at odds with Robertson’s charismatic tradition.[33]
During its existence the Moral Majority experienced friction with other evangelical leaders and organizations as well as liberal leaders and organizations. For example, Bob Jones particularly sought to challenge the public position of the Moral Majority and was known to make public statements that the Moral Majority was an instrument of Satan.[10] Such rivalries affected the Moral Majority’s grassroots efforts. In South Carolina, the Moral Majority had no presence because Bob Jones University’s religious network had already organized the state’s independent Baptists.[35] The tension between Falwell and Pat Robertson also affected the Moral Majority, as noted in the presidential elections section of this article. On the ideologically opposed side, Norman Lear’s liberal organization People for the American Way was formed with the specific intention of opposing the platforms of the Moral Majority and other Christian Right organizations.[36]
Some issues for which the Moral Majority campaigned included:
Censorship of media outlets that promote an "anti-family" agenda
Enforcement of a traditional vision of family life
Opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment and Strategic Arms Limitation Talks
Opposition to state recognition and acceptance of homosexual acts
Outlawing abortion in all cases, even to save a woman's life
Targeting Jews and other non-Christians for conversion to conservative Christianity
Others that have shared the same views:
For what reason?
Why?
where is the difference?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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May 11, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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Klimmer.
The fact that you love your God is great.
However, you seem to be taking the bible literally, rather than the parable that it was meant to be.
I'm not disputing the validity of Jesus, rather pointing out the obvious fact that the bible has been manipulated by the Vatican to serve their purposes over the millennia.
The bible is a way to teach a formula for being a nice person, not a text to be taken literally.
Anyone who takes the bible literally will contradict themselves.
Get a clue, dude. Follow the rules laid out regarding how to be a good person and take the rest with a grain of salt.
I know I won't get through to you, you're a zealot, but I had to try.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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May 12, 2012 - 08:34am PT
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..Man has the freedom to do want he wants to do within the limits of GOD's laws...
This attitude is EXACTLY why I consider christians to be more of a threat to national security than the Taliban -- because christians are here in large numbers, they hold political office and they ignore the U.S. Consitution.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 12, 2012 - 08:57am PT
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Ron wrote
two of the few gay guys i know made a choice to be so then they made the choice not be--then--well,,you get my point. So if this is indeed the case, how does x or y anythings come into play?
Oh BS. You can chose to repress yourself, and some folks may be bisexual but speak for yourself Ron. Imagine that being Heterosexual was both considered immoral and borderline illegal. You have sexual energy right? Could you choose to be Gay? Can you feel it? WHy would your stomach turn when you see Gay activity (like you say) if you could choose?
Peace
Karl
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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May 12, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Just read some interesting stats by the Barna survey organization.
Is there sanctity of marriage?
33% of born-again christians in the USA who were married have had a divorce, a number identical to the overall national average of divorce.
Only 30% of atheists and agnosts in the USA who have been married have had a divorce.
Hey christians, can you say "hipocrisy?"
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 12, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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kind off hard to read the words, but if you squint it can be done
or rather than get a headache "click to enlarge" a karmic trick of those who were blind in a former life.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 12, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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They don't call it Special Kay for nothin
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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May 12, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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reproduction w/o a partner DOENST happen in nature....impossible. .
Wrong again, partner.
You must have been sleeping through your science classes.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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May 12, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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Not to single Ron out, but I use his statement as it is used by many people.
so what do you all think of NATURE? It was NATURE that designed a man and a woman to propagate the species.
It was also nature that made some people sterile or unable to bear children. And it is nature that allows an 11 y.o. girl to get pregnant and have children yet we don't think this is the best option. Lots of things 'natural' are not widely accepted in our culture.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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May 12, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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In the interest of fairness….
Because some people just don't know how to play fair.
 Aside from the natural systems in the world (which are pretty much indifferent to human ideas of fairness) where is your idea of fair coming from?"
it's not fair?
Who says anything about fair?
I'm all for freedom. Some things we should be allowed to do without the very narrow minded laws of our bureaucracy. An example, why not allow BASE jumping at certain times in National Parks? GOD doesn't have a rule or law forbidding BASE jumping? Probably thinks its pretty cool really that we have figured that out and that we're pushing the envelope in that area of adventure.
As if anything at all stops people from BASE jumping at any time in National Parks? I feel I have to point out that though it may not be legal by the pathetic mans law, there is nothing stopping people from doing anything.
If you say that there is a fine if you did it, I'd say that a cost for having the freedom for doing what you want to do.
If you say there may be jail time, then I say that too is a cost of freedom.
Not to mention the slippery slope argument Let one jump, you have to , in the interest of "fairness" allow all to jump.
However, as a Christian I know I'm limited by GOD's laws.
Like the one that says man was not born with wings, but science and reason have brought us the wing suit?
P.S. there is no god. We are all limited by our own minds and for some bodies.
Man may pass laws of all kinds that go far beyond and that allow many things that GOD and his word directly forbids and that GOD is absolutely 100% opposed to and has said "No. Don't do it. Don't do these things.
Funny, you're not opposed to the Florida "Stand your ground" law, or state sanctioned murder by death penalty. Hmm….
These Laws have always been here for us to guide us, at least since GOD gave the Law to Moses that he brought down from Mt. Sinai.
So, you think that god spoke to folks in a desert community in a time just before humans in that area started to write things down…and never again to speak to anyone… not one sole since. That's logical. Maybe this was the worst period of human evolution, and people just needed to be told about some lessons that others in their tribes had learned. They were pretty happy that they could learn how to write you know… can you imagine?
Man has the freedom to do want he wants to do within the limits of GOD's laws. GOD sends the rain to the just and to the unjust. However, there is a judgement. You cannot escape the judgement and consequences of your actions when you go against GOD's laws, whether man's laws support your behavior or not. We are held to account for the life we live here on Earth. You may enjoy a life of homosexual/gay marriage, but you won't like the eternal consequences for making that choice.
That's a long way of saying you are not for equality for all. But then again, you didn't need to say it, I kind of picked up on that when you said you were christian.
So, since you know so much about the judgements of god… How much of a judgement did Hitler get for killing so many of God's chosen people?
Don't expect Christians or other people of faith to be happy about this. When we go against GOD's laws then eventually a country and nation can turn into Sodom and Gomorrah, and if you know you're Bible, it didn't turn out so well for them.
much like in your god's world scenario, we should bring back slavery, and selling children into slavery, and death for talking back to parents, and death for many things hat are now pretty common… Yet we don't kill people for stealing because that's just pathetic.
And if it were true that anyone not following the strict rules laid down by god….. Explain how China has become such a powerful force in the world? India?
You'll get away with the behavior of sin for awhile, this Earthly lifetime, but not forever. Christians don't bring the judgement, GOD does.
Right, christians have nothing to do with any of it. Which clearly indicates where you should be in any of the arguments… out of it. Don't you see, your words, though they may have good intentions, are not god's words. They are yours. A mere human being. One who is no better and no worse than any other. What gives you the privilege of spouting your narrow-minded biblical views.
You say you are all for freedom, but only within the narrow-minded, desert dwellers writings about a god.
It seems to me that all this gods law BS and how humans are behaving is just a lot of wind. I'm sure it brings meaning to your life.
I'm not going to hate people who are gay. No, I care for them just like everyone else. Love the sinner, but hate the sin. All I can do is witness to them. I can't force my views upon anyone or pass laws against anyone, nor should I ever try. The eternal Law of GOD already exists. We don't need to add to it or take away from it. It's perfect.
Its nice to know that you think as highly of the LGBT community as you do your neighbor, your pastor, your priest, or your minister and postman. Good to see you really do see everyone as equal.
You can dance and drink the night away on the Titanic...
No… no one can dance and drink on the Titanic, its at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Oh, wait… that was analogous…. got it.
BTW, didn't your god have something to do with that?
…if you want to, but you can't escape the consequences.
Did you hear about the survivors?
Sin is a pleasure for a short season," as the Good Book says.
Sorry, never recognized any of the good back as valid. But I did find that part in Matthew 6 (1-6) to be quite inspirational when listening to folks preach on a street corner or in a church.
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