Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 01:42pm PT
|
Scooter- Rawanda?
check this out at www.slate.com
Unsettled
Victory in the war is not victory in the argument about the war.
By Michael Kinsley
Posted Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 11:12 AM PT
http://slate.msn.com/id/2081376
(worth the read)
|
|
Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2003 - 01:51pm PT
|
Scooter,
Rule #23 from "How to Know, In a Battle of Wits, When You are Dealing with an Unarmed Opponent" : After having his arguments sliced to shreds, your opponent ridicules the keenness of your blade.
Other evidence: "As for me even if there are ulterior motives for the war I don't care." . . . "Apathy is unacceptable."
------------------------
Matt,
How 'bout just a link next time, instead?
|
|
JR
climber
boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 06:43pm PT
|
Jody-
fine you win. We're all hypocrits, too stupid to understand the complexity of this or any other issue.
But just curious: besides the nice pictures of scenery, do you have anything climbing related to add to this site? I see lots of gun pictures, as well as keen and incisive political commentary, but nothing substantive regarding climbing. I mean, have you ever actually climbed actual rock besides those slabs you love to show to prove you're not female.
I get it now- you're just a troll, and an incredibly persistant one at that. Once Supertopos went to registration, I was sure that effective trolling would be no more. But Jody, my boy (or whatever), you have proved that assumption wrong!
|
|
Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 06:55pm PT
|
Matt - ANWR might not affect global supply, but it would directly affect California (and OR and WA). Where do you think our oil comes from? Alaksa. 16 billion barrels might not be that much on a global scale, but it is on a regional scale.
The sum of each little field in the US adds up to one heck of a lot of production. There's currently about 1000 rigs drilling right now in the States. Maybe if we upped that number we wouldn't have to go galavanting around the Middle East, we could just let them kill each other.
|
|
Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 07:14pm PT
|
JR...if you would go to some other thread besides these few political ones, you would see my contributions. I am not trolling...I believe in everything I say. What are we supposed to do, not have anything but "politically correct" opinions? I am not one who voices opinions only when they are popular. I have made more posts and contributions here related to climbing than any other subject. You and some others here think that in order to contribute to a climbing site you have to be some sort of hot-shot climber. Your way or the highway I guess. Geeez!
You people are all alike...see a non-climbing opinion that you don't agree with and you say the same thing..."Don't you ever contribute anything climbing related?" or "You probably don't even climb" or something similar. You all are so predictable.
|
|
jonah
Trad climber
boulder, co
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2003 - 07:36pm PT
|
Bravo, Jody,
Having read your opinions above, I assumed you were either joking or just deeply ignorant about politics, and didn't have anything very insightful to say. But you are absolutely right that ad hominem attacks are bullshit that add nothing to the discussion....
That said, if you want to see the another side of the argument (one that has not been posted so far), you may take a look at the policy white papers from Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld (under the aegis of PNAC) before they came into the adminsitration. You may get a kick out of why they were arguing then for the unilateral invasion of Iraq. I'll give you a hint: it's a three letter word, starting with "O". It's not my words, it's theirs. Also be sure to check out the above-market price contracts Halliburton and Brown & Root (Cheney's companies) got BEFORE the war started.
Maybe we SHOULD invade other countries and take their oil to establish American hegemony. That is certainly what the members of the administration argued for before being elected. However, they should be open and honest about their desire to establish an American empire, so that the populace can make informed decisions about supporting them. I understand the deep-seated American need for comlicity and ignorance, but I still feel that more information is better than less. The Bush Administration's dissembling does injustice to democracy and only strengthens the assumption on the part of the rest of the world that the current American polity is more fascist than democratic.
P.S. Before you bitch about my use of "fascism" look up the meaning of the word.
|
|
10b4me
Trad climber
Bishop(hopefully)
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 08:05pm PT
|
hey Jodie,
no, you're the predictable one. always a one sided argument in favor of the conservative viewpoint. (notice I didn't say right viewpoint).
you're a very narrowminded person. unwilling to accept, or even respect, opposing viewpoints.
I wish I was as smart as you are Jody. just remember though, it's what you learn after you know it all that's important.
now, let's see some pictures of you on the sharp end.
|
|
Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2003 - 08:24pm PT
|
10b4me wrote:"...you're a very narrowminded person. unwilling to accept, or even respect, opposing viewpoints..."
I repect other viewpoints, even when I feel they are wrong. You are right, I have actual convictions on things. How credible would I be if I changed my mind on things every five minutes? Or if I only voiced "popular" opinions? No 10b, you are the intolerant one...because I am true to my convictions, I am "narrowminded" etc. Liberals like you preach tolerance like crazy until it comes to conservative viewpoints. Where is your tolerance of us?
|
|
hillsyde one
Social climber
double wide.......
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2003 - 10:02pm PT
|
Jody-
know anything about the relationship between automatic weapons and marijuanna? the stamp acts that brought both to an end(in legal terms)....the Laguardia reports? i saw this cool show on the history channel the other night...interesting sh#t. comparing (not in literal terms) pot heads and proponets of automatic weapons......
and dont make any assumptions here people....i dont care if you want to shoot machine guns or smoke herb. that show was just interesting..
i think it was titled Illegal Drugs and how they got that way or something along those lines.....
J
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 02:53am PT
|
Scooter Wrote
>How is Karl the enlightened one's essay any different than what he has said before?
Not different, I agreed with myself before and also nowQ
>Way to go Karl you really have it dialed, the California brain >wash thing that is.
Been a Californian all my life and I'm even proud of it! You'd be more effective changing my mind with some facts or reasons that contradict what I've stated. I'm open to new ideas.
>As for me even if there are ulterior motives for the war I don't >care. If the U.S. let Saddam's regime drop another person into >the human shredder then you and I are just as guilty as he is. >Apathy is unacceptable. Just ask the Jew's who survived WWII or >what was left of the Cambodians after Pol Pot.
It's sad that we humans are so sick that there are plenty of countries that we are allowing torture and oppression to continue in. So many that even the US can't control them all. Too bad we slapped the UN in the face. They were our best hope of a legitimate worldwide response to the ills you point out. Just because they wouldn't let us invade when we wanted, all of a sudden they don't count. A world body has checks and balances. Our single country has been too tempted to trade strategic advantage for human rights blindness all along. We did it with Iraq, Iran, and many more. We're doing it now in China, Pakistan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. I applaud your idealism but it has little to do with our political reality.
Peace
Karl
The most important thing is to prevent the US from becoming the evil we seek to stamp out.
|
|
Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 03:40am PT
|
Karl,
I have to disagree with your argument that the UN decisions are somehow more legitimate than those of the US.
Thankfully, we have a representative democracy (otherwise we would have nuked Afghanistan on 9/11). The House and Senate are ideally supposed to be deliberative bodies that cool the heat that we would have in a truly democratic society.
Nothing will ever live up to the ideal, but we should keep on trying.
The UN is made up of a hodgepodge of countries. They rotate positions. Odd circumstances can arise where the Libyan delegation is on the human rights panel and Syria is voting in the Security Council. What kind of governments do they have? What ulterior motives do their ambassadors have?
Are all, most, or even some of the UN ambassadors voting for the betterment of the world, rather than their corrupt national interests?
Of course our President, House members, and Senators aren't always voting for what's best for planet earth, but I'd rather have them make their decisions based on corrupt US interests (or even personal interests) than those of some of those other nation's corrupt interests.
I look forward to the day when the world's populations are well educated, government is free of systemic corruption, democracy is universal, and the nations resign their sovereignty to the world body.
But we're not anywhere close to being there yet.
Scott
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 10:36am PT
|
Hi Loom
You make some good points. As usual it's not a simple matter though.
Congress voted not to fund the Contras during the last Bush administration, but the administration went behind their backs (by selling arms to terrorists) and were lucky to escape impeachment.
This Bush got congress to authorize force on Iraq as a last resort to show the resolve and solidarity of our government. Notice he didn't go back to congress to get a declaration of war when inspectors were getting unfettered access to the Iraqi sites of their choosing.
This Nixon loophope of undeclared war must be closed so a wacko president (if we were to get one) can't just invade whomever he pleases.
The vast majority of the world's population was, and is, against the war. It just wasn't justified. Spain is in our "coalition" but 80 percent of their population is against the war. That's somewhat typical. Much of the world that considered the US a benign force is now reconsidering.
My prediction: Any next step in creating American Hegemony as desired by those key Bush strategists (Rummy, Wolfy, Pearl, and so on) will be difficult to justify. Look for a nasty terrorist act "allowed" to happen or similar event to whip up the public frenzy just before the next country is invaded. You can bet Bush won't be caught without a war when election year rolls around.
Peace
Karl
|
|
rockn
Trad climber
spiritually - the mountains, physically - Bay Area
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 04:29pm PT
|
OK, everyone. War is horrible. People die. Innocent people die. And I disagree with the stated rationale for this one, and think it may lead to more bad than it solves.
However, I think it is important for everyone to remember that had our country not taken action in the form of wars, many 'millions' more people (in Europe and Russia, for example) would've died @ the hands of Hitlers regime. Those people that would've died may have been you or your friends ancestors, in which case you wouldn't be able to use this forum, since "you" wouldn't exist.
I am not for war, but (regardless of the various reasons any of us may apply to it) had we not taken action in Iraq in Gulf 1. SH would have used everything at his disposal (and likely would've succeeded) to take over not only Kuwait, but the Saudi's as well. He would have done this in his effort to control the world's oil supply, but mostly for greed and power. How many innocent children would've been "gassed" along the way?
He and his regime are evil, murderous thugs, and if given half a chance, would take over our country as well.
There is no question that war is ugly, we're all free to express our opinions, and I certainly don't have all the answers.
Two quick notes to the guy that (referring to the supposedly biased media coverage)
1. The media is telling you what they think will keep you listening to sell advertising.
2. It sounds as if you're mocking the coverage of "heroic Marines" carrying Iraqi children to safety... I have one nephew risking his life on the front lines in the 83rd Airborne and a friend in the Marines (who, by the way, is a highly skilled climber)and trust me, they would do the same thing. They are not there to "kill Iraqi's" They are great people who are doing their job for their country, your country. That's it.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 06:59pm PT
|
Just a quick note about ANWAR. Like it or not, that place is going to be drilled. As the world runs out of oil, it's going to get more expensive and more precious. You can't fly planes with hydrogen.
So sooner or later, the pressure to get that oil will become overwhelming. But wouldn't it be safer leaving that oil in the ground and use Middle East oil while we can.
Why use up the meager amount of our domestic reserves? When it's gone, we'll be really vulnerable.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Nemo
Big Wall climber
Colorado Springs, CO
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2003 - 09:01pm PT
|
Without getting fully involved with this conversation, since I've done that elsewhere, let me just say that most of these accusation's against Jody are unfounded and illogical. I respect opinions on all sides, but there have only been a couple of these on each side amid all this rubbish.
For the record, Jody makes lots of sense. Emotion is blinding a lot of arguments here (not all, though). Lots of nice ideas are simply not possible in the reality of 2003. I appreciate some comments, like Karl's oil views, which seem to grasp reality. On the oil topic... GM just decided to stop their electric car program, not because people aren't buying, but because their potential has run dry. They will simply never run quickly and reliably over any great distance without oil. These things are unfortunate realities, realities that underwrite our need for oil from somewhere.
A couple of specific topics...
"just remember though, it's what you learn after you know it all that's important"
That's retarded, but meant to be snide, not logical, I'm sure. Almost anybody can make a good decision after the fact. That's why we say hindsight is 20/20. What's crucial is people who are accurately able to assess situations and make decisions DURING events, recognizing patterns and posturing.
Also, somebody said unemployment continues to plummet. I checked - Last quarter it went up, as well as last month.
As far as schools go, we do have an important issue to deal with. But don't hyperventilate! It's not a CRITICAL issue, in my opinion. It's not as if nobody is getting educate. We just need to tweak things to make it more effective. I will add that I see President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program as well-intentioned, but doomed to failure.
|
|
Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2003 - 09:52pm PT
|
Karl, I agree with your last post 100%! The problem is, people cry about being dependent on foreign oil, and they cry about drilling at home for it. They are also the same people that drive around(saw two of them yesterday on the road) in a gas-burning car with "No War For Oil" bumper stickers. Huh?
|
|
hillsyde one
Social climber
double wide.......
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2003 - 02:03pm PT
|
the US recieves 2% of its crude oil supply from iraqi soil.
yes a whole 2%....so, who thinks the war is over oil?
|
|
TrevorJ
Trad climber
Aberdeen Scotland
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2003 - 09:06am PT
|
God, late to the forum again,
Was listening to the BBC this lunchtime and heard an Iraqi state he wanted
1 - Water
2 - Electricity
3 - Freedom
War sucks, I am glad the Iraqi people are free and that tens of thousands were not killed (as perdicted by the anti war lobby), but we are going to have to wait about 10 years to realy see the full outcome of this (mis)adventure.
If we want peace in the Middle East, the big question is how do we stop the Arabs and Isreli's killing each other?
Back to the grind and some seacliff climbing this evening.
|
|
JR
climber
boulder, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2003 - 01:11pm PT
|
Trevor-
no your right tens of thousands were not killed... but it was pretty darn close.
several thousand Iraqi soldiers
1300-1800 civilians- www.iraqbodycount.net
100-200 coalition troops
Add it up and you're getting kind of close to the ten-thousand mark.
I don't think it was even remotely worth the loss, but only time will tell I guess...
|
|
MikeA
climber
Layton, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2003 - 03:17pm PT
|
Karl Said:
"Sanctions that the UN estimated were responsible for 1.5 to 2 million preventable Iraqi deaths over the past 10 years including 500,00 children."
So, that's an average of 150-200,000 dead per year, or in the month that the war was waged (17 Mar-15 Apr) the UN sanctions/SH's Regime would have killed around 10,000 people....
You're going to have to try harder to prove that number of deaths is a good reason not to fight a war....
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!